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  1. #81
    Regular IntricateVision's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    This is an interesting point, and I honestly really, really like it. This sounds like a good possible direction for us to go in. (Note- I haven't spoken to any other staff about this post; so I'm only speaking my own opinion, not vouching for the rest of staff).
    Seconded? Thirded?

    But still pushing for more comprehensive verbiage in the expectations of any rating tier that contains nudity. Otherwise we'll still see copious amounts of pr0n outside the explicit section.

    @Frank LeRenard
    Also hoping for clarification on complex but clearcut ratings

    One of the things I like about Weasyl versus DA, is there's a lack of the "Well Technically..." Arguments.
    that is something isn't technically porn because it didn't meet these 5 factors, but anyone looking at it would never show it to a child or their grandma because it's totally porn. And if possible, I'd like a site that avoids that mess while still being clear and concise


    On Fetish,
    I do think perhaps... I mean, I want to say it's common sense, no one draws their fetish and doesn't know it's their fetish, but I do think there's like a line where something moves from mild to more extreme.
    Fetish in the classical worship sense versus a more obvious obsession/fascination that could be considered grotesque by the average viewer.
    Cause I don't think all fetish work is necessarily explicit and I don't think anyone should feel punished for their kink if they wanna see it but also not necessarily have to flip through porn if they're put off by it.

    Like this dude is big: http://www.popimage.com/content/images/MBQ072.jpg
    Could be defined as hyper maybe, but I don't think anyone would say it's an adult image.

  2. #82
    Glad to hear a few members of the staff are interested in going with the permissive general rating.

    I also just want to mention that I'm totally in favor of having a clear cutoff, and playing it safe with what IS legal to show. I haven't proposed any specific language here because I think letting your legal staff establish the boundaries and then just revising for clarity is the right way to go. I definitely don't want the ratings allowing any legal-gray-area content. As an artist, I want to be able to trust that I'm properly protected as long as I'm following the site's guidelines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    I believe one of our mod directors is meeting up with two other directors and our legal expert IRL in the next few weeks. If I can, I'll get an update for you regarding what we can and can't show to minors.
    This sounds great, I'll look forward to hearing what guidance they offer!

    Quote Originally Posted by IntricateVision View Post
    One of the things I like about Weasyl versus DA, is there's a lack of the "Well Technically..." Arguments.
    that is something isn't technically porn because it didn't meet these 5 factors, but anyone looking at it would never show it to a child or their grandma because it's totally porn. And if possible, I'd like a site that avoids that mess while still being clear and concise


    On Fetish,
    I do think perhaps... I mean, I want to say it's common sense, no one draws their fetish and doesn't know it's their fetish, but I do think there's like a line where something moves from mild to more extreme.
    Fetish in the classical worship sense versus a more obvious obsession/fascination that could be considered grotesque by the average viewer.
    Cause I don't think all fetish work is necessarily explicit and I don't think anyone should feel punished for their kink if they wanna see it but also not necessarily have to flip through porn if they're put off by it.

    Like this dude is big: http://www.popimage.com/content/images/MBQ072.jpg
    Could be defined as hyper maybe, but I don't think anyone would say it's an adult image.
    Regarding the fetish classification stuff, I guess my impression was that people are supposed to be able to avoid work they find grotesque or offputting via tag blacklisting.

    I really like the idea of getting away from ratings based on "sexual intent" type language and focus on more concrete terms, and I like the idea of being able to classify fetish work along the same clean/mature/adult divisions so that people who like that stuff can enjoy the same control over their browsing experience. So yeah, I'm in favor of keeping the ratings policies fetish-neutral.

    Though, now that I think about it, I would be really curious to also hear from your legal staff what the laws are regarding showing clean fetish content to minors. If there are legal distinctions, then it should be outlined in the ratings with the rest.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Flygon View Post
    Not at all rated in the USA, and appears to be impossible to air anyway. Then Pom Poko gets away with a PG rating.

    Yet in the rest of the world, it's a frigging children's movie.

    Good job, America.

    Sorry for these posts... it's just baffling to me. This American cultural dissonance.
    Part of the issue with comparing movie ratings is that they're not imposed by a government agency like they are in literally every other country in the world. Once upon a time, it was believed that having the government make the call on who can and can't go see a given movie would be an unacceptable intrusion on free speech or whatever, but that they probably would do it if they believed it was necessary. So the movie industry first instituted the Hays Code, which straight-up banned movies with certain content from being distributed, and eventually the G-PG-R-X ratings system (essentially the equivalent of our four levels, except that technically anyone would be allowed into a PG movie and the age cutoff was 16 this is why I'm advocating to keep the Moderate level but make it accessible to guests).

    Since then, the ratings levels and what they mean have changed (it used to be possible to have brief topless nudity in PG movies, like Airplane!), but ultimately they still have free reign over what rating they assign to what film. I'm sure there's some senator who's seething over Pom Poko getting filed under the kids section at his local Family Video, but it would take a much bigger lapse than that to land them in legal trouble. Hollywood, after all, has some of the deepest pockets of anyone in the world. Weasyl doesn't have that going for it.

  4.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #84
    Retired Staff Frank LeRenard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
    ...this is why I'm advocating to keep the Moderate level but make it accessible to guests.
    Just a weird thought I had in response to this just now, but I wonder if it would make sense to do something like what you're advocating (a Moderate level that creates something like a thumbnail needed to view the work, but that anyone can view if they click the thumbnail), but have it be totally optional and not enforced? Like, if some people felt a need to flag their work as a courtesy, but knew it didn't merit a higher rating like Explicit. If we didn't enforce it, then the community itself would build the standard for what belongs in such a category through feedback to the artists posting the work.

    I don't know. As I was typing this I was also thinking of ways that could backfire and stir heated arguments, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

  5. #85
    Senior DrunkCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank LeRenard View Post
    If we didn't enforce it, then the community itself would build the standard for what belongs in such a category through feedback to the artists posting the work.
    That sounds fantastic.
    "To tell us that every species of thing is endowed with an occult specific quality by which it acts and produces manifest effects, is to tell us nothing; but to derive two or three general principles of motion from phenomena, and afterwards to tell us how the properties and actions of all corporeal things follow from those manifest principles, would be a very great step." -Issac Newton, Optics
    "You are what you do not do." - Relax

  6. #86
    I'd just like to say that I'm super happy with how the mature system is right now. I personally like artistic nudity works but absolutely hate seeing the sexual and arousal stuff, so I'm ecstatic to see it actually being properly enforced now. Please, please, please leave it as it currently is.

    Moderate however, I'm not entirely sure on, and I think it's confusing people since I do see nipples being listed in the category fairly frequently. I like the idea of it, but... Eh?

    I'm not entirely sure where to stand on fetish things either. Sometimes there's bits, sometimes there's not. Sometimes there's arousal, sometimes there's not. It's a really strange area. If it needs to be separated, I think the best thing for it might be an on/off switch of sorts..? Something like sfw but in settings, so in the case of non-bit and non-arousal artwork it can be shown in the place it'd generally belong, but it won't be forced on anyone who doesn't want to see it. Add a check box or something during submission to sort them all out. But I dunno, just my thoughts. I'm not entirely sure how this stuff works, haha~ Sorry.

  7. #87
    Junior FeyPhoenix's Avatar
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    Okay, I was going to try and read through all responses here before posting, but I find myself lacking in time, so apologies if this has already been discussed.

    I think the overwhelming majority of users find that the 4th category, moderate (13+), to be nice in theory but, ultimately, pointless. Especially since moderator action against infractions has been so damning.

    What we should have, instead, is submission categories. IE: Fetish, Violence, Drug use, etc. and have those categories be selectable with submissions. Give people the option to filter these and, that way, people that don't want to see them can essentially blacklist them with less worry of seeing it (since many people still don't tag things correctly and then throw a fit when people edit the tags, though I see a LOT less about this than I do complaints about the ratings... a topic for a different thread)

    SO! With that, you can get things like, something I saw someone reference, Tom and Jerry cartoon silly violence in general, while anything with blood/hard violence can be marked mature+violence and then guts/gore/extreme violence can be explicit+violence.

    On that note:

    General: No detailed nudity, genitals, sex, only 'cartoon' violence

    Mature: Non-sexual nudity, no arousal, blood, violence

    Explicit: Sexual activity or arousal, serious injury, strong violence, or death


    With this in mind, fetishes can also be in general and mature categories, as long as fetish is selected and it does not fall into the other categories. There are certain things I think I brought up before that are arbitrary and silly in determining what makes a fetish explicit, such as a gag automatically needing an explicit rating even if the person in question is fully clothed and not engaged in sexual activities at all. Such as, for example, an anthro/human, fully clothed/covered wearing a bit and acting like a feral horse (pony play) can be completely innocent (or at the very least, non-sexual) and marked in general+fetish category, rather than the bit automatically putting it in explicit because it is, technically, a gag. Or a muzzle, just anything tied around someone's head and in their mouth.

    Then, a naked, but unaroused person in the same situation: mature+fetish

    Naked, aroused/engaging in sexual activity: explicit+fetish


    Not sure about implementing/enforcing such a thing, but a category system like that, I think, would be really beneficial.

    Please correct me if I am wrong. Or if someone gets what I am saying and can explain better/elaborate. And apologies if this has already been discussed. Literally sneaking on at work to do this because I haven't had time otherwise. x.x;

  8. #88
    Senior GlaringFeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makoto View Post
    I'd just like to say that I'm super happy with how the mature system is right now. I personally like artistic nudity works but absolutely hate seeing the sexual and arousal stuff, so I'm ecstatic to see it actually being properly enforced now. Please, please, please leave it as it currently is.
    I like how artistic nudity and sexual nudity is separated too. However, changes to the rating system must be made because the length of the rating policy and the confusion is driving people away.

    I'm not entirely sure where to stand on fetish things either. Sometimes there's bits, sometimes there's not. Sometimes there's arousal, sometimes there's not. It's a really strange area. If it needs to be separated, I think the best thing for it might be an on/off switch of sorts..? Something like sfw but in settings, so in the case of non-bit and non-arousal artwork it can be shown in the place it'd generally belong, but it won't be forced on anyone who doesn't want to see it. Add a check box or something during submission to sort them all out. But I dunno, just my thoughts. I'm not entirely sure how this stuff works, haha~ Sorry.
    I like the idea of having checkboxes to tell what's in a picture that people should be aware of, and I think it'll be much easier to blacklist that kind of stuff.
    -Insert inspirational quote here-

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by GlaringFeline View Post
    I like how artistic nudity and sexual nudity is separated too. However, changes to the rating system must be made because the length of the rating policy and the confusion is driving people away.
    Oh, of course! I'm not saying to not change the system at all, I'm just saying to keep the two separated as they currently are. Sorry for any confusion!

    Quote Originally Posted by FeyPhoenix View Post
    What we should have, instead, is submission categories. IE: Fetish, Violence, Drug use, etc. and have those categories be selectable with submissions. Give people the option to filter these and, that way, people that don't want to see them can essentially blacklist them with less worry of seeing it
    Yes, this! But my worry is that it might just end up being ignored like tags. It might not fit well as a single category since multiple fetishes might be in one image, but as an option, you can't really force something to be selected since not every image has something that'd bother people. There could be a fetish category that brings up a list to choose from, but I feel like that might be overly complicated... But honestly, I'd probably take it regardless of how it's set up. Just my thoughts though.

  10. #90
    Regular Bornes's Avatar
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    On the current subject, regarding checkboxes for more descriptive ratings, that's what tags are for.

    But a lot of people just don't tag correctly and in my opinion that is one of this site's downfalls.

    That being said, I think if we instituted these "more descriptive ratings" as just checkboxes that say if it's fetish/etc., it would just be a better UI. Checking the box would simply add a tag to your work.
    This falls in line with the 'suggested tags' and possible 'mandatory tags' that came up in the tagging discussion a while back. We need more uniform tags so the features dependent on tags (such as blacklist) are much easier to use and more dependable.

 

 

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