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  1. #61
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    Personally, I feel we should still have a four-tiered rating system. General itself would be family-friendly stuff and then that bars minors from being able to see anything that might be a step above that. Movies here in the U.S are rated as G, PG, PG-13, R, and NC-17 and I think the rating system should be set up like that.

    What I had in mind is General is for everyone and moderate 13+ like it already is, but turn Mature into a forewarning category and Explicit be 18+. Mature could be the stuff that isn't outright illegal for minors to see, but not something you'd show the entire family either, kinda like the Borderlands games. When you click into a mature image, it would display a warning of what's there and you have to click a button saying you want to see it and that would be separate from the tagging system; it's what dA does and as much as I hate that site, I like how it's rating system is structured.

    To me, the description of a three-tiered rating system seems like it'll only allow minors to see Tom and Jerry maturity content and that's absolutely absurd considering that here in the U.S 17 year olds are allowed to purchase games like GTA and CoD.
    -Insert inspirational quote here-

  2. #62
    Senior DrunkCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarlaChan View Post
    Thus bringing back why is this organ still allowed to be shown if it's a male body? That wording is a HUGE double standard. Since we are speaking scientifically, to which I have a degree in biology. Described in that way really does sound like male and female mammaries are really being counted differently.

    Men can get breast cancer, and can develop lactation disorders. It is far less common but we have all the same parts in that respect.
    Dude, take it up with the Delware legislature. This is a DE business and has to abide by said laws. They are being counted differently, so if you feel that strongly about it send a letter to the Delware governer but keep it out of this thread. That law, as far as it concerns Weasyl, is immutable. The sooner that's accepted the sooner a solution can be found.

    This is why I feel trying to shield users from that harsh reality is a detriment. It just wastes a lot of time having to get this point anyway. Bottom line: Age is a determining factor. There can be a site-level distinction between sexually explicit and simple nudity but both will have to, by default, be restricted to users 18+.
    Last edited by DrunkCat; 05-21-2016 at 01:57 PM.
    "To tell us that every species of thing is endowed with an occult specific quality by which it acts and produces manifest effects, is to tell us nothing; but to derive two or three general principles of motion from phenomena, and afterwards to tell us how the properties and actions of all corporeal things follow from those manifest principles, would be a very great step." -Issac Newton, Optics
    "You are what you do not do." - Relax

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkCat View Post
    Dude, take it up with the Delware legislature. This is a DE business and has to abide by said laws. They are being counted differently, so if you feel that strongly about it send a letter to the Delware governer but keep it out of this thread. That law, as far as it concerns Weasyl, is immutable. The sooner that's accepted the sooner a solution can be found.

    This is why I feel trying to shield users from that harsh reality is a detriment. It just wastes a lot of time having to get this point anyway. Bottom line: Age is a determining factor. There can be a site-level distinction between sexually explicit and simple nudity but both will have to, by default, be restricted to users 18+.

    I doubt the law would word it so stupidly. Like honestly with law they make sure wording is sound. The wording weasyl is using is bullshit and flawed.

    Plus I give up, since this has turned into an argument with no one giving a fuck about what I say. My points get brushed over with people just repeating the same stuff. Even when I give examples. I'm just repeating myself as people are ignoring when I address their points.

    I think the current rating system is terrible. I thought this thread was to talk about our issues. But whatever...

    I'm remembering why I forgot thus site had a forum.

  4. #64
    Senior GlaringFeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarlaChan View Post
    I doubt the law would word it so stupidly. Like honestly with law they make sure wording is sound. The wording weasyl is using is bullshit and flawed.
    Not really, the law is a gray area in a few places. Example: Copyright law and what constitutes fair use; someone made a thread not too long ago about their problems with how Weasyl handles copyright and from it the staff learned that the Safe Harbor Law exists.

    Plus I give up, since this has turned into an argument with no one giving a fuck about what I say. My points get brushed over with people just repeating the same stuff. Even when I give examples. I'm just repeating myself as people are ignoring when I address their points.
    The staff do care about what you're saying, and I'm certain they would change it if they were legally allowed. People are repeating themselves because you're not understanding what they're saying. Is it sexist that female toplessness is not okay while male toplessness is? Very much so. Does U.S law take the standpoint that breasts are not sexual objects? That varies from state to state, some permit female toplessness and some do not so Weasyl's standpoint has to be blanket because all those exceptions would make things nearly impossible to manage. You're trying to debate the law with Weasyl's staff and it's going to be a losing battle because there are things they are legally bound to.

    Some places might have special exceptions regarding nudity, but Weasyl is taking the safe route and assuming that if such an exception exists, they are not covered by it. Frank himself said that he'd prefer to avoid legal confrontations. Allowing female toplessness to minors is asking for a lawsuit from a pissed off helicopter parent. DevianTART has the resources if a legal battle were to come up for any reason and that's why they can tiptoe around and even outright ignore the law, that and they're a big site too so people will assume it's a loss to fight them anyways.

    I think the current rating system is terrible. I thought this thread was to talk about our issues. But whatever...

    I'm remembering why I forgot thus site had a forum.
    Which is why there is a thread to discuss how the guidelines can be changed. The staff is listening to our suggestions, but there are things that Weasyl simply cannot change regardless. I don't like it at all, but it's the truth.
    Last edited by GlaringFeline; 05-21-2016 at 03:58 PM.
    -Insert inspirational quote here-

  5. #65
    Senior DrunkCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarlaChan View Post
    I doubt the law would word it so stupidly.
    What I quoted is the law verbatim. Noxid himself has included images of that very section. Please understand that no one here has "brushed" you over. This is a very complicated topic and there exists many avenues of discussions, which can lead to arguing between two similar but distinct points that can lead to ad nuaseum discussion. Clear (and calm) communication is key.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlaringFeline View Post
    Some places might have special exceptions regarding nudity, but Weasyl is taking the safe route and assuming that if such an exception exists, they are not covered by it.
    Section k of the legal code states this exception: "Where such person is a bona fide school, museum or public library or is acting in an official capacity as an employee of such organization or as a retail outlet affiliated with and serving the educational purposes of such organization."

    So Weasyl would have to get an endorsement from a school, museum or public library.
    "To tell us that every species of thing is endowed with an occult specific quality by which it acts and produces manifest effects, is to tell us nothing; but to derive two or three general principles of motion from phenomena, and afterwards to tell us how the properties and actions of all corporeal things follow from those manifest principles, would be a very great step." -Issac Newton, Optics
    "You are what you do not do." - Relax

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by KarlaChan View Post
    I doubt the law would word it so stupidly. Like honestly with law they make sure wording is sound. The wording weasyl is using is bullshit and flawed.

    Plus I give up, since this has turned into an argument with no one giving a fuck about what I say. My points get brushed over with people just repeating the same stuff. Even when I give examples. I'm just repeating myself as people are ignoring when I address their points.

    I think the current rating system is terrible. I thought this thread was to talk about our issues. But whatever...

    I'm remembering why I forgot thus site had a forum.
    I get that you're frustrated, but in the last few years, the US has enacted over 800 unconstitutional restrictions on women's medical care. It has a whole plethora of laws that don't make much sense on the books including it being illegal to wear a swimsuit in Hawaii, one state made it illegal to carry an ice cream in your back pocket, and do remember that in several states it is illegal to own, buy or sell any kind of marital aid due to obscenity laws.

    The US like many countries has a long and stories history of badly worded laws and just plain ridiculous ones, a badly made law will only change if someone campaigns for change or legally challenges it, an expensive and difficult procedure.

    Also when you're talking about a site the size of Weasyl in comparison to say Deviantart, there's the big difference, Deviantart has the legal muscle and size that Weasyl doesn't have. Generally speaking the bigger the site, and greater the income, the more leeway the site has in terms of how much it has to protect itself. A frivolous lawsuit from somebody who thinks the internet is a babysitter and is upset that their kid saw nudity can cost a site thousands, that's a big hole in the budget for the smaller site, whereas a big site like dA with it's own lawyer on retainer can probably scare the parent off without forking out for an actual legal case.

    I get it's frustrating, to be honest, as someone who has dealt with this question myself, it's annoying that often sites are covered by a patchwork of legal systems that were never created to address the very real issues the world wide web opens up, and which were created by politicians who don't understand the internet (see the new VAT law that is basically sounding a death knell to small online businesses in the EU). But all anyone who runs any site can do is to make the best judgment calls they can, and sometimes those calls come down to whether it's worth the risk verses what benefits it will bring.

    In an ideal world, everyone could get what they want, but we unfortunately live in a less than ideal world in which most sites are subject to laws created by individuals who hardly use the internet and who think owning a marital aid counts as an obscenity. The staff here have to work within the system unfortunately.

  7. #67
    To me there are two ways to go with this: simplified or more complex but clearcut.

    Simplified version:
    General: Non-obvious bulges, no nudity, no sex (or implied sex)
    Mature: heavily outlined bulges, nudity, exposed genitals, sex, bloody violence, etc

    Complex version:
    General (the only under 18 category): same as above
    Mature: nudity and exposed genitals. Arousal level doesn't matter in this. No boner police necessary (like FA). Besides it's rather sexist as women don't really have an obvious way to show arousal but men do.
    Violence/Gore: self-explanatory
    Adult: Sex things
    Extreme: for instance, pain during sex, rape, inflation, vore, watersports, etc

    This way people could filter out these things even if the proper tags aren't applied. See InkBunny for a solid example as they use a similar complex (but easy to understand) rating system.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank LeRenard View Post
    We've just finished another staff meeting, and are very seriously looking into the idea of dropping to a three-tiered rating system: General, Mature, and Explicit. This doesn't mean we've 100% officially decided on that course of action, so please keep arguing for alternatives if you have them, but we're currently leaning this way.

    So we have a question: what all would folks like to see in each category?
    Very happy to hear this.

    As for what should go in each category:

    I would be in favor of a permissive general rating, that is, anything that can be rated general, should be, as other content will be off limits for minors. I understand that nudity needs to be mature for legal reasons, which makes perfect sense to me; my question is, are there legal requirements detailing what can be shown to minors in terms of violence, drug use, and vulgarity? That seems like a good place to start.

    I don't have strong opinions about where the split between mature and adult is, but I feel like it's a lot more reasonable to go with conservative ratings here, since people will be free to pick what they see however you set it.



    I'm also getting the impression that some people are going to be sad to see the back of the moderate/13+ rating. My question is, is there any possibility of adding something like browsing categories or suggested tags so that people can more reliably filter out content they don't want to see? I feel like the specifics would be best left to another thread, but I'm curious about the staff's opinion on reworking the browsing options to pick up the slack here.



    I would also like to see fetish content specifically addressed on the ratings guidelines. My impression is that the current policy is: Rate the material as if it were not fetish content. Inflation that might be seen in a Looney Tunes cartoon can still be marked general. Fetish material does not, on its own, merit a higher rating.

    I'm in favor of this policy, since everything's a kink to someone. But, this is something I've learned from reading moderators commenting in forum threads, not something that's officially stated. It's a common enough issue that I feel the official policy should be outlined somewhere in the rules.

  9. #69
    Regular Flygon's Avatar
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    If I can chime in for a second, if the posters here want more a more 'relaxed' legal situation, they do appear to be totally free to donate enough money to move hosting to a different country.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axikita View Post
    I would be in favor of a permissive general rating, that is, anything that can be rated general, should be, as other content will be off limits for minors.
    Sorry if I'm misinterpreting what you mean by this, but this sounds like you want minors to only be able to access general rating and that's really discriminatory. I understand that certain things need an age barrier because of the law, but it's ridiculous and ageist to say that minors should only be able to access cartoon violence and things of the like. I think the only things that should be limited to 18+ are things that legally have to be there, such as sex and nudity.

    I have a very strong opinion on topics regarding age limits, but I'm trying to be mindful of the law in expressing my opinion because I understand that the law is beyond Weasyl's control.
    -Insert inspirational quote here-

 

 

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