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  1. #491
    Solifugid Onnes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fay V View Post
    I can see that. To be honest I am not sure what to think of this sort of thing. One issue is that, people seriously misinterpret funding in higher education and assume that public institutions make a lot in terms of government funding. In the case of my university this isn't really true. The funding provided is for in state students only and just barely covers the cost of educating the student. The school basically gets on with out of state tuition. Not only that but the vast majority is made up through grants and alumni funds, which are restricted funds generally (you can only use them for certain things)
    The retreat of public funding is really a separate issue, though. The interesting part is that on a per student basis public funds allocated to community colleges are significantly lower than public research institutions and that that gap is widening over time. Research institutions have far more funding avenues to begin with than community colleges and have student populations that are more likely to be academically successful from the start.

    Also, these days community colleges are often not that small. They can't be, given how enrollment has skyrocketed. The one I graduated from had a student population over 16,000, making it almost as large as my present research university (where a majority of students are graduate students anyway.)

    There is a class disparity, you see it within colleges as well, and that is a problem but not one that is easily fixed. There's also the issue that when the government seeks to address a problem with one they exacerbate the issues of another. for instance our university is being forced to comply with retention tracking mandates designed to punish the for profit predatory schools, and to do this we will be spending a shit ton to rework the system, because that's a lot more people to track.

    Research universities spend more on student education, but how much of that is pure government non-grant funding? How much is simply due to size?

    I think more can be done in the way of satellite schools and connections to university programs. Particularly with 2 and 2 programing. At the moment I'm attempting to develop programing to better support the tribal colleges (much like community colleges) of the state in order to lessen the gap between native and non native students in terms of higher ed. There is a reason community colleges serve non-traditional students, it is better for retention over all I think, but a better connection to local universities will help.
    For instance while the tribal college is a god send for tribal retention, we can't pretend that research university with millions of dollars in grants won't have better equipment.

    I don't think that the gap will ever be lost. it's true universities are bigger, broader, and have a much larger range of items to draw funding from, that goes into the reason behind the institution itself. I think however that gap is best alleviated will satellite schools and working directly with universities in order to lessen the gap of quality and expectations between a 2 and 4 year degree. It's not a matter of x gets more funding than y, because I think in the end community colleges would face the same issues with more funding, just to a lesser extent.
    The existence socioeconomic disparity is, of course, completely unsurprising and absolutely permanent. However, trends in disparity, and funding, are interesting. Ideally, we'd like to see gaps close over time or at the very least remain stable. Instead they have widened.

    Of course, this trend is probably precipitated by the requirement of a degree for anything resembling a career or long-term employment. In the past, class disparity was likely more of a splitting between the lower-middle class and the upper class, whereas now we are looking at large numbers students trying to go to college from families at or below poverty levels and including far greater minority representation. However, this change in demographics is something that should be explicitly addressed, or else you wind up with only some subset institutions shouldering the bulk of the new burden without any additional resources.

    The thing is, insufficient funding is a problem. Community colleges are staffed by armies of adjuncts with pay and benefits commensurate with a "job of last resort" or supplementary income. In many cases they don't even have offices because there is simply no room for them. And this isn't even going into the unmet demands for academic support. One would expect the populations these colleges serve to need even more counseling and guidance than those of research universities. (And a huge amount of time spent making sure that credit transfers align, even within a state system with a unified course catalog.)

  2.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #492
    Didn't try, Succeeded Fay V's Avatar



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    I see your point yeah. Honestly I would love to see more interaction with colleges and universities, rather than having them separate, but I suppose that's something of a pipe dream. oh well. Honestly I wish much of education funding was redesigned, but i'm not in the mind set to give a proper discussion it seems.

  3. #493

  4. #494
    Generally, i generally am quite well. I generally don't try to use the word generally as often as I am. But because this is a general general discussion, and generally we discuss things, doesn't the word generally look weird now that I've said generally enough?

    I think that's enough of that silliness XD Anyways, I'm doing well. Could do with a little colder weather, but beggars cant be choosers. Bit behind in my art because of school and work, but gotta keep doing both of those things to get where I want to go! I still have to finish 2 fursuits, make a new con badge for myself, finish the one I'm working on for my mate, and various other projects. Would be a bit easier to get things done if I didn't work as much, but yeah. ^^; so, how is everyone else? I hope everyone is well

  5. #495
    Senior Dark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fay V View Post
    I see your point yeah. Honestly I would love to see more interaction with colleges and universities, rather than having them separate, but I suppose that's something of a pipe dream. oh well. Honestly I wish much of education funding was redesigned, but i'm not in the mind set to give a proper discussion it seems.
    Though the thing with high education, especially in the US, is that more and more average people are viewing big-name unis as essentially paying to go into debt rather than an education. American universities churn out more degree-wielders per year than any system in the developed world, yet most of these degrees are useless simply because the job market is oversaturated. Couple that with the astronomical tuitions for some of these schools and it's a wonder people were bleeding money in 2008.
    Meanwhile, in #CoE...

    [20:12:26] <+Dark> "He's dead, Jim."
    [20:14:11] <Nate|phone> My name's not Jim
    [20:14:20] <Nate|phone> And Starr's not a guy
    [20:15:18] <Nate|phone> ...
    [20:17:20] <+Cerberus> And Shadow's not a callgirl.
    [20:17:52] <+Dark> LOL

  6.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #496
    Didn't try, Succeeded Fay V's Avatar



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark View Post
    Though the thing with high education, especially in the US, is that more and more average people are viewing big-name unis as essentially paying to go into debt rather than an education. American universities churn out more degree-wielders per year than any system in the developed world, yet most of these degrees are useless simply because the job market is oversaturated. Couple that with the astronomical tuitions for some of these schools and it's a wonder people were bleeding money in 2008.
    Eh, the issue with this attitude is it's at odds with the philosophical intent of universities. Historically the university was not designed for career degrees, that's a newer trend that fades in and out. Most universities are set up to instill within the students the ability to think critically. There's a shit ton of research concerning the short and long term effects of college before and after recession. While it's true the short term is harsh the long term is still much better for college goers.
    The biggest thing for high end private or ivy league schools is connections. There's not that much difference in terms of quality of education.

    For teir 1 research institutions that's a different thing. in large universities you have the program that does well. Mine is engineering and despite the recession our engineers and science students easily find work.

    but again it's a different philosophy. Academia and higher education wants to teach critical thinking, people wanted to get degrees to get a job, and corporations preferred experience. The higher tuition rates are due to this issue. Government funding has been reduced significantly in the past couple decades because they see higher education as degree mills and want results though the true results are hard to quantify. Anyway while once upon a time funding covered much of the education, now most universities are run on out of state tuition, or just tutiton in general.

    There's a lot of issues with higher education because we have issues where people make mandates without understanding the issue. Montana wants to go to a performance based funding system. This sounds fancy and clearly schools that don't put up should not get funding, except the system is idiotic.
    Much of performance based funding is based on graduation and 1st year attrition. That means how many traditional freshman graduate in 150% of the degree time (within five years generally), and how many freshman remain after 1 year. The issue with this is transfer students don't count. If you have a university which has a lot of students transfer in (we do) they could give amazing quality education, but not have grand numbers.

    Currently if this goes through we may be facing budget cuts. Our university has been seeing exponential growth in the past few years due to careful development of high end programs. So as we table out it appears we aren't doing as well. On the other hand the rival university in our state has seen hemoraging of the student body for various reasons, including rape scandals. As their number level out they appear to be doing better. It's short term and in a couple years it will be obvious we are providing higher quality education, but honestly that's a rather dumbass thing to happen.

    All in all the way the market worked with higher education was doomed to break. currently the system doesn't properly teach 9-5 desk job skills, but in our market revolution it isn't needed. you need to be able to innovate. Higher education has always had ups and downs, we'll see and increase in it again soon, particularly in the long distance market.

  7. #497
    Solifugid Onnes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fay V View Post
    Eh, the issue with this attitude is it's at odds with the philosophical intent of universities. Historically the university was not designed for career degrees, that's a newer trend that fades in and out. Most universities are set up to instill within the students the ability to think critically. There's a shit ton of research concerning the short and long term effects of college before and after recession. While it's true the short term is harsh the long term is still much better for college goers.
    The biggest thing for high end private or ivy league schools is connections. There's not that much difference in terms of quality of education.
    I have to wonder, though, how generally the benefits of a college degree will hold for those graduating during the recession. In one sense, if you're far enough down the socioeconomic scale during a recession then finding any sort of employment is an accomplishment. But by traditional measures, a college graduate needs to find superior employment to offset the time and money cost of the degree. And it's not like you can ever escape student debt short of paying it off or faking your own death, which puts a strict lower limit on acceptable employment for many graduates.

    but again it's a different philosophy. Academia and higher education wants to teach critical thinking, people wanted to get degrees to get a job, and corporations preferred experience. The higher tuition rates are due to this issue. Government funding has been reduced significantly in the past couple decades because they see higher education as degree mills and want results though the true results are hard to quantify. Anyway while once upon a time funding covered much of the education, now most universities are run on out of state tuition, or just tutiton in general.
    (Note that what I say here on out is most clearly aimed at private universities, as the governance and politics of public ones is much more bizarre.)

    I think I'm becoming increasingly cynical towards the mission of higher education. When I look how universities advertise their programs and what they emphasize when touring new students, they rarely focus on academic concerns. I think university administrators, whether they admit it or not, are far more likely today to view the university as a business and the students as consumers which has obvious consequences for rigor and completion. And as a slight tangent that bothers me to no end, there's also the problem that the awful traditional lecture format of so many university courses has proven harder to get rid of than your average zombie apocalypse, despite being the core of the undergraduate academic experience.

    All in all the way the market worked with higher education was doomed to break. currently the system doesn't properly teach 9-5 desk job skills, but in our market revolution it isn't needed. you need to be able to innovate. Higher education has always had ups and downs, we'll see and increase in it again soon, particularly in the long distance market.
    I think the traditional model would be more palatable if universities were absolutely forthright about what it is and isn't. And if they they didn't go and weaken it by trying broaden their appeal and sell everyone a degree. It seems like educationally speaking so many students can manage to go through a four-year program and get remarkably little out of it. They go into it for a degree, not an education, and the institution accommodates them either because it has to or because it is getting delicious tuition money.

    There's a common sequence in probably most universities these days often referred to as "Physics Without Calculus." You might as well just call it "Handwaving and Magic." If you tell graduate students from other countries that it exists they burst into laughter, because pretty much all physical theories are most generally and concisely stated in differential (or integral) form. You can't work with them or understand them otherwise. I find this courses broad existence representative of how the ideals of higher education have deteriorated under pressure.
    Last edited by Onnes; 06-02-2013 at 01:14 AM.

  8.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #498
    Didn't try, Succeeded Fay V's Avatar



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    It's hard to talk about higher education because it's a lot of organized chaos. Particularly depending on the kind of governance of the state and university. The administration is more business like for many, the professors generally want to focus on academics and research (with some more intent on research and some more intent on teaching), students want higher end support, parents want students to get jobs, employers want a certain set of skills.
    yeah...

  9. #499
    Senior Dark's Avatar
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    In Canada, there is no Ivy League-like echelon of schools where getting in requires connections which generally require seven- or eight-figure earnings. I mean sure we do have internationally-renowned schools such as UBC, McMaster, et al., but these schools are more or less no more difficult to get into than Fleming College or York University. Though, I would say with UBC that actually having the funds to live in that area is a feat all its own, considering BC is a notoriously expensive place to live.
    Meanwhile, in #CoE...

    [20:12:26] <+Dark> "He's dead, Jim."
    [20:14:11] <Nate|phone> My name's not Jim
    [20:14:20] <Nate|phone> And Starr's not a guy
    [20:15:18] <Nate|phone> ...
    [20:17:20] <+Cerberus> And Shadow's not a callgirl.
    [20:17:52] <+Dark> LOL

  10. #500
    Solifugid Onnes's Avatar
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    That Xbox thread reminds me that I probably haven't played any sort of real game in months. My top-of-the-line gaming rig is sitting here running simulations all day. Getting older is weird.

 

 

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