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  1. #31
    Senior Kurk2288's Avatar
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    Eh to each of their own.

    I thought TA was referring to Patreon as a service or bad practice rather than all users or person(s). Hell I'm guilty of poking fun and being critical of Steam, despite being apart of it myself. As for "tone", I usually don't mind if I think people can be reasoned with, because emotions are (for the most part) irrelevant. I'm just glad that instead of dismissing TA or peppering him with cliche responses. You brought up good points and elaborated on your posts.

    Before we all kiss and make up, let's take a look at Patreon's guidelines, terms, and refund policy.
    Oh and it appears it was hacked not too long ago, and resulted in extortion attempts.

    For those interested in my thoughts,

     
    Community Guidelines

    Authenticity:

    "Patreon is for artists, creators, and people who bring ideas... Don’t put up fake pages or collect money for things you’re not actually doing. You also can’t use Patreon as a prank or to fund non-activity. For example, no Creator is allowed to collect funds for *not doing* something, or to fund the distribution of creations that are not yours.
    "and people who bring ideas..." WHAT, I could get payed for "IDEAS"?! :U
    If you're just "entertaining" and nothing else you can still play the game.

    Bullying, Harassment, Threats and Hate Speech:

    Patreon should feel like a safe place for normal people. We don’t allow bullying or harassment on Patreon. At the same time, we want people to be able to express themselves, be critical, and discuss controversial issues. We recognize that discussing celebrities, media or other public figures can sometimes involve harsh criticism, and we believe that is an appropriate part of free debate. That said, there is no room on Patreon for hate speech or serious threats of violence. For us, hate speech includes serious attacks on people based on their race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex, gender, sexual orientation, age, disability or serious medical condition.
    I'm glad they gave examples to what hate speech actually is, because progressive idiots & "activists" have no fucking clue. Sadly it's often used as a bludgeon to silence or censor, and to dismantle freedom of speech.

    Nudity and Pornography:

    Patreon is not for pornography, but some of the world’s most beautiful and historically significant art often depicts nudity and sexual expression. Because of that, we allow nudity and suggestive imagery, as long as it is marked NSFW.Think of the policy as allowing “R Rated” movies... BUT NOT PORN. In keeping with our strong commitment to safety, we have zero tolerance for content that sexualizes children in any way.
    I highly doubt both of those statements. Oh look LMAO (NSFW).
    They should revise this, because it's a huge contradiction to reality.

    Patreon? More like Porntreon.

    Facilitating Harmful or Dangerous Activity:

    We don’t allow funds to be collected for organizations that promote, forums that distribute, or anything else that primarily facilitates harmful or dangerous activities. For example, an organization that promotes sexual abuse, intellectual property violations, weapons, commercial spamming, self harm, drug manufacturing techniques, or property crimes would be prohibited from receiving funds through Patreon.
    I seriously hope this doesn't apply to gun and blade smiths.

    People Who Can’t Use Patreon:

    Because Patreon empowers people financially, we impose restrictions not only on the types of media and projects that can be funded on Patreon, but also on which people can and cannot receive funds through Patreon. After creating a Patreon page, any Creator caught in the act or convicted of making credible violent threats, committing violent crimes, malicious doxing, coordinating nonviolent harm such as fraud, or encouraging others to do the aforementioned harmful activities may be banned from using Patreon.

    People with a dangerous criminal history or known affiliation with violent or dangerous groups including terrorist or cyberterrorist organizations, organized criminal groups, and violent hate groups, cannot receive funds through Patreon, no matter the purpose or apparent intention of their Patreon page. Similarly, anyone who has ever been convicted of child sex abuse, fraud, or money laundering is not permitted to collect funds through Patreon
    .
    What is their standard of evidence for being "caught in the act"? I'm sure I'm not the only one whom has had copy-cats and impostors elsewhere. It's annoying this doesn't have a classification of seriousness or danger. Not all felonies, crimes and malicious acts are the same.

    Also let's say hypothetically one grew up in a family or has had a history of being "affiliated" with X hate/terror group. BUT. They've either had no criminal history and or moved on in life. Should they really be penalized or banned from using it? Even if some one has had a criminal/dangerous past, I' don't think -some- people should be punished indefinitely outside of a court of law through employment, services, etc.

    These Guidelines are Enforced:

    Creators who violate these community guidelines may be banned from using Patreon. Depending on the severity of the violation, a Creator may instead receive a strikes on his or her account. If you see a page on Patreon that you feel violates our community guidelines, please send us an email. Please also realize that Patreon is a diverse community, and while you may not necessarily agree with someone’s point of view, it may not be a violation of our community guidelines.
    3 strikes you're out? This model, it sucks.

    I know Patreon doesn't actually enforce some of this, also based on the closing paragraph.
    However, I wanted to share these for opinions and highlight issues.
    Last edited by Kurk2288; 01-08-2016 at 11:02 AM. Reason: spoiler & format

  2. #32
    I totally agree with you OP. I think patreon creates too big of a wall between fans and artists

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Sari View Post
    I totally agree with you OP. I think patreon creates too big of a wall between fans and artists
    I love how the only people who will openly agree with me have less than 10 posts.
    Get a loada this guy here.
    https://twitter.com/DogdongD

  4. #34
    Junior sdos's Avatar
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    Well I'm close to 10 posts and disagree with you, so...

  5. #35
    Senior GlaringFeline's Avatar
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    I've got well over 10 and I agree, so yeah. My main beef with Patreon is how artists abuse it and how the staff are on par with dA's "copyright etiquette team". Other than that, I like what Patreon was made for.
    -Insert inspirational quote here-

  6. #36
    Premium User Oly's Avatar
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    I don't entirely disagree either, I just don't think you're looking at the problem from the right angle.

    Why are you trying to make yourself look personally attacked? :U

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by TeenageAngst View Post
    I love how the only people who will openly agree with me have less than 10 posts.
    Not sure I get what that has to do with anything. I think artists who run patreons and truly care about their fans will not lock their work behind a paywall, but trust that their fans genuinely care and WANT to support them.

    Else what is the point? If you don't believe in your fans nothing else makes sense really

  8. #38
    Regular Fibriel Solaer's Avatar
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    Another silly rage post blaming Patreon for the practices of cherry-picked users? You may as well get mad at Kickstarter for Mighty No. 9.

    The fact is that the big boy artists do not use Patreon for its intended purpose and that is not at all Patreon's fault. What do you expect them to do? Start going after artists and lose all of them in the subsequent panic, not just the ones who are abusive? There is absolutely no way for Patreon to stop these practices without scaring or screwing over all of their other users too, and there's no reason for them to do so anyway, since Patreon takes a cut of all the pledges made so they're pressured to just let them do it.

    And let's not forget one thing you've glossed over: an artist cannot force Patrons to pledge. They choose to do so, and you have no right to tell them that they are idiots wasting their money.

    I will admit however that Patreon is a naive and foolhardy concept - it expects fans of creators to support the creators for the work they are already creating, that is, pretty much for free. Creators were never supposed to paywall their work. They were supposed to provide supplementary bonuses on top of their work to Patrons. Patreon's own guides provide numerous examples of rewards to give Patrons, not a single one of which is a paywall!

    The problem is that neither artists nor their fans are capable of maintaining such a relationship.

    Our art community is very consumer-minded, thinking of art only as a product to be purchased. That is to say, fans do not care about art - fans care about getting art. They simply cannot comprehend the fundamental point of Patreon and therefore they will not patronize a fair and proper Patreon because they see it was "so what do I get out of it??"

    And the artists, in response, are either greedy fuckers who want to milk fans for all they've got... or more likely are honest people who have realized that paywalling is the only way their Patreon will ever be successful because the art community pretty much only cares about buying commissions and adoptables like they're collecting baseball cards.

    It would be a wonderful thing if artists could simply draw good art and be supported as a thank you by a grateful and generous community who appreciate them for being there and receive little to nothing in return...

    ... But that community does not exist in this world, and so they cannot.

    Patreon's only mistake is expecting too much from humanity.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also you can legally make money off of fan work because a portion of that fan work is your own legal property & value. The individual image and more importantly the labor and supplies put into creating it are yours, and they warrant monetary compensation that you are legally allowed to demand.

    Naturally, this will not help you if you go into mass-production (i.e. bootlegging.)

  9. #39

  10. #40
    Regular RogueSareth's Avatar
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    Op sounds deeply salty about how other people decide to make money.
    Call it a sell out if you want but if I can make more money doing YCH's, Adoptables or limiting certain things to patreon you damn well better believe i'm going to do it and salty bitches can cry somewhere else.

 

 

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