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  1. #11
    Premium User Oly's Avatar
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    Artists DO deserve to make a living if they work hard, and people were douchebags before patreon.

    You just sound like nothing but your username.

    Stop whining.

    Also: cuck is a really stupid insult, and if you want to be able to profit off your writing, fucking write something original. Duh.

  2. #12
    Junior wakor's Avatar
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    Patreon, a highly popular service that allows people to show their appreciation for artists by funding their work and making sure they can keep making that work...

    Is like a cancer??

    Dude, go outside. Breathe in some fresh air. No one cares if you don't like Patreon, adoptables, or YCH. They hurt absolutely no one and you're just being unnecessarily grouchy.
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  3. #13
    Senior GlaringFeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly View Post
    Artists DO deserve to make a living if they work hard, and people were douchebags before patreon.
    Quote Originally Posted by wakor View Post
    Patreon, a highly popular service that allows people to show their appreciation for artists by funding their work and making sure they can keep making that work...

    Is like a cancer??
    Patreon has some positive parts, but there are legitimate criticisms about the site and if you actually care to listen instead of mindlessly defend then they're points you'll at least consider instead of tossing them out the window because TA's wording is abrasive.

    There IS a problem with artists moving their galleries behind a Patreon paywall, and artists that make commissions available only through Patreon. Cool-beetle on Tumblr said "Patreon is a tip jar, not a paywall." but sadly, a lot of artists are starting to use it as a paywall. Some content I can understand being a perk for people who support you, but it's ridiculous and counterproductive to restrict commissions and your gallery at large to the site. It should be used as a "premium" while normal viewers are the "free" audience but artists are starting to abuse the hell out of it and turn it into more than the "tip jar" system it's supposed to be. I personally don't have any beef with the idea of Patreon itself, but the people who are abusing it to get as much money as they can out of their fanbase.

    Patreon is getting to the same level as deviantART in dishonesty, something that should be concerning to people who give a shit about basic integrity. Shanley Kane doxxed a reporter and Patreon said that was a violation of their Community Guidelines yet to this day, the account is still open.

    Patreon claims in it's Community Guidelines that it isn't a porn service but I can easily pull up a shitton of links of people posting porn and fetish art on Patreon. Whoops, I had no idea that Dash from The Incredibles having sex with his mom still adhered to "we have zero tolerance for content that sexualizes children in any way." That isn't just an example I pulled out of my ass, that is something someone on Patreon made that I saw on the ED article and I did a quick Google search and found it on creator's site which I won't be linking for obvious reasons. I didn't know that bestiality involving Ryoko and Satsuki from Kill La Kill adhered to the Community Guidelines either, which again, I did a simple Google search and found the original on the user's Pixiv. If I wanted to, I could take all the images in the gallery near the bottom of the page and find where the original was posted, but I think I already made my point. Before this is brought up, I'm not using those examples to kinkshame, I'm using them to show that Patreon ignores it's own rules.

    I'm not going to make this into an fully-drawn debate about the morality of Patreon since morality arguments just keep going in circles, but also because I don't keep up much with Patreon drama.
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  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Oly View Post
    Artists DO deserve to make a living if they work hard, and people were douchebags before patreon.

    You just sound like nothing but your username.

    Stop whining.

    Also: cuck is a really stupid insult, and if you want to be able to profit off your writing, fucking write something original. Duh.
    Artists deserve to make what the market dictates. If they can't hold their own on commissions in an open market like an art site is, then they're not entitled to a monthly stipend. Anyone who acts like that is an entitled jackass. Also: cuck is a beautiful way to describe these people, and I'm merely holding my art medium to the same standards as everyone else. If they can get Patreon bucks for drawing anthropomorphic Pokemon fucking, I should be able to get money for writing about the same thing. Makes sense.

    Patreon, a highly popular service that allows people to show their appreciation for artists by funding their work and making sure they can keep making that work...

    Is like a cancer??

    Dude, go outside. Breathe in some fresh air. No one cares if you don't like Patreon, adoptables, or YCH. They hurt absolutely no one and you're just being unnecessarily grouchy.
    If you'd read the OP you'd understand why I feel the way I do. This has nothing to do with the "tip jar" aspect GlaringFeline mentioned but rather the crap the avaricious artists pull with their paywall and exclusive content mentality along with the obsequious followers who enable that kind of thing. I've never been one to accuse visual artists of having good reading comprehension but anyone can see that these things *do* hurt people who are looking for traditional commissions or even quality artists to follow.
    Last edited by TeenageAngst; 12-26-2015 at 02:47 AM.
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  5. #15
    Premium User Oly's Avatar
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    I haven't seen anyone move to a paywall structure that hasn't had the support from their customers to make it happen before choosing to do so, so if you're arguing 'free market!' that's a poor argument. Yes, if their shit isn't good enough to warrant the cost, nobody will buy. So either people are buying or they're losing their income. If they're still doing it obviously the majority of people are OK with it, so who the fuck is anyone to say they can't?

    And how is this any different from ANY content creator moving behind a paywall previously? It's not. Your own argument, man: the market will either allow it or not. Obviously the market is allowing it. Get over it.

    Visual art and writing aren't equivalent and holding them to the same standards is a mistake.

    For most people Patreon will probably be a tip jar or maybe a minor secondary/tertiary income at best. That doesn't mean that if someone can use it otherwise without breaking the rules they aren't allowed. Stop being so fucking bitter and pay attention to the artists that do business in a way you like, then, and ignore the ones who do it in a way that displeases you. There's a million indie artists that could use the support.

    And for the record, visual artists aren't allowed to use copyrighted materials for profit any more than a writer is. If it bugs you so fucking much, keep reporting it. But don't be surprised that horny fucks will still get their pokemon smut up.

    Encouraging buyers not to support shitty business tactics? Fine. Calling an entire site and payment structure cancerous - insulting both everyone who uses the service and actual cancer patients, way to go - is not so fine.

    edit: and just because I didn't come out with a five paragraph discourse on why I disagree doesn't mean I didn't read the OP or the thread. Yes, there are valid concerns to address, like with anything anywhere ever. Calling random bunches of people weak-ass insults like 'cuck' and 'cancer' isn't the way to change anyone's mind of get them thinking. It's just going to cause kneejerk reactions and have people write off your legitimate concerns because you sound like a teenager who just discovered reddit.

  6. #16
    Senior kynliod's Avatar
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    TA, I'm not familiar with Patreon, but in response to your comment about artists only deserving to be paid what the market dictates: How is an artist charging more money for their art--which they're perfectly entitled to do, since art's value is subjective, and as the creator, how much you value your time and effort matters--something to be criticized? If you don't want to pay that much, go somewhere else. Would you say the same for artists who thoroughly undervalue their own work, and thus drive the market down? That is far more destructive to the art community as a whole than someone charging too much.

  7. #17
    Premium User Oly's Avatar
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    Yeah, if all artists got paid what most people seem to think they're worth, NOBODY would make a living as an artist.

    And this is a world where people are willing to pay 1000+ just to get porn from a really popular artist. Do I like it? No. Would I take that much money to draw smut if someone offered? I'd be stupid not to. And regardless of how much I like it or not, it's a transaction between two autonomous people which I have no personal involvement in, so it's none of my business and none of yours either. :U

    If you want to criticize it, criticize the actual problems, like lack of enforcement. That IS a real problem and it's a shame to hear it's so prevalent.

  8. #18
    I went on Steam last week and I found this. I call it, Exhibit A:

    https://www.patreon.com/majorminor?ty=h

    The monthly donations have fallen by about $80 since I last looked but be that as it may $920 a month to develop what could generously be called a visual novel centered around the creator's fursona is something beyond my comprehension. I encourage you to look this abortion up on Steam and read through the reviews to get a nice idea as to the caliber of work this artist is putting into his product now that he has a fairly substantial monthly stipend. Take note that his FA account is almost entirely devoted to pushing his game, which incidentally is funded primarily through Patreon.

    TA, I'm not familiar with Patreon, but in response to your comment about artists only deserving to be paid what the market dictates: How is an artist charging more money for their art--which they're perfectly entitled to do, since art's value is subjective, and as the creator, how much you value your time and effort matters--something to be criticized? If you don't want to pay that much, go somewhere else. Would you say the same for artists who thoroughly undervalue their own work, and thus drive the market down? That is far more destructive to the art community as a whole than someone charging too much.
    I have had this discussion before. I don't have a problem with people auctioning off commission slots or raising prices in response to market demand. In those circumstances though the artist is beholden to the commissioner to provide a quality product to some level of satisfaction. Under Patreon, they're beholden to a collective, so unless they *really* slack off they can basically just shovel content out and call it art. Practice sketches, perspective work, stream doodles, hey, it's content, let's make them pay for it. The old adage was why produce great when good sells? Now it's why be good when mediocre gets you donations? The bar is dropping like a goddamned stone. And if you say anything, if you complain about a lack of monthly updates or lower quality art or poor responses to patrons or even just honest criticism of the art, it doesn't matter how much money you've thrown at the artist, your ass is blocked. That money is gone. With a commission you're at least entitled to a refund if the artist reneges.

    Visual art and writing aren't equivalent and holding them to the same standards is a mistake.
    Elaborate.
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  9. #19
    Junior Sassafras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeenageAngst View Post
    \

    Take note that his FA account is almost entirely devoted to pushing his game, which incidentally is funded primarily through Patreon.

    The old adage was why produce great when good sells? Now it's why be good when mediocre gets you donations? The bar is dropping like a goddamned stone.
    What you're complaining about isn't really a new trend. You mention that guy pushing his game so hard--that's marketing. It's often been the case that lackluster work is commercially successful because it's been marketed well, why exquisite or groundbreaking works linger in obscurity. A lot of good creators have too much modesty/self-respect to put themselves out there and shill hard. It may seem unfair, but constantly pimping your work IS work, and should we really be angry when it pays off for people?

    You can't support great work if you never hear of it, and if all people come across is mediocre offerings...that's what's going to get their money.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sassafras View Post
    What you're complaining about isn't really a new trend. You mention that guy pushing his game so hard--that's marketing. It's often been the case that lackluster work is commercially successful because it's been marketed well, why exquisite or groundbreaking works linger in obscurity. A lot of good creators have too much modesty/self-respect to put themselves out there and shill hard. It may seem unfair, but constantly pimping your work IS work, and should we really be angry when it pays off for people?

    You can't support great work if you never hear of it, and if all people come across is mediocre offerings...that's what's going to get their money.
    "Blocking people who leave poor reviews, giving people free copies of the game so they can write fake positive reviews, now allowing patrons any say in the content, and lying about the scope of the game and getting away with it because 'hey, it's early release' is all fine and dandy because it's just good marketing."
    Get a loada this guy here.
    https://twitter.com/DogdongD

 

 

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