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  1. #21
    Regular redregon's Avatar
    Weasyl
    redregon
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    Feb 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf-Bone View Post
    Why do I get the sneaking suspicion redregon isn't talking to me, or even at me, but about me. Say what your problem is dude. Don't be a coward like Chase. At the very least have the stones to PM or something.
    You aren't special and this is not about you. It's about unpacking what's being said so as to analyze and deconstruct it if needed.

    It's just how I tick.

    I am curious why you've chosen the position of being the victim in this, however... Maybe that's another puzzle to figure out or maybe you're just trying to assert dominance in this conversation by appealing to people's sense of fair-play/empathy/pity so as to isolate me from the herd and encourage (subtly) your peers to attack me because I'm "attacking" you specifically.

    *shrugs* Who knows...

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by redregon View Post
    You aren't special and this is not about you. It's about unpacking what's being said so as to analyze and deconstruct it if needed.

    It's just how I tick.

    I am curious why you've chosen the position of being the victim in this, however... Maybe that's another puzzle to figure out or maybe you're just trying to assert dominance in this conversation by appealing to people's sense of fair-play/empathy/pity so as to isolate me from the herd and encourage (subtly) your peers to attack me because I'm "attacking" you specifically.

    *shrugs* Who knows...
    I'll try to address the other replies later because there is some good points in there but basically for now, my whole thing is fuck your armchair psychology bullshit. I ain't trying to hear it. If this isn't about me, then stop trying to "analyze" me and tell me "how you tick" because if it's not about me, then it's probably not about you, either. I don't care what your motives are, you sketch me out.

  3. #23
    This is an idea that's been floated around since the days when Usenet was the place to go, The thing s, furry, is not any kind of formal organization where you can control who gets to stay in, and who gets kicked out. Like any other fandom, it is a statistical quirk defined by a set of common interests. People do have this annoying habit of doing whatever they want regardless of whether you like it or not, and for better or worse, there are a lot of people out there who seem to like the current situation just fine.

    On the bright side, the lack of formal structure can work in your favour. Just like science fiction fandom spun off a myriad of sub-fandoms, of which furry happens to be one, there's nothing stopping you from cultivating groups within furry that share your particular interests. One of the few things FA did right was the ability to create groups for this, but they certainly aren't essential.

    I'd certainly welcome any attempt to show furry at its best, and it certainly has been done in the past. Yerf and Artspots were both sites devoted to promoting clean, quality anthro art, and it's definitely something I'd like to see again. I know several veterans of both sites who currently have pages on Weasyl. What the Fur is a furry con in Montreal that puts a PG-13 limit on its art show, so there are people who are interested in a more positive vision of furdom.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by rbartrop View Post
    This is an idea that's been floated around since the days when Usenet was the place to go, The thing s, furry, is not any kind of formal organization where you can control who gets to stay in, and who gets kicked out. Like any other fandom, it is a statistical quirk defined by a set of common interests. People do have this annoying habit of doing whatever they want regardless of whether you like it or not, and for better or worse, there are a lot of people out there who seem to like the current situation just fine.

    On the bright side, the lack of formal structure can work in your favour. Just like science fiction fandom spun off a myriad of sub-fandoms, of which furry happens to be one, there's nothing stopping you from cultivating groups within furry that share your particular interests. One of the few things FA did right was the ability to create groups for this, but they certainly aren't essential.

    I'd certainly welcome any attempt to show furry at its best, and it certainly has been done in the past. Yerf and Artspots were both sites devoted to promoting clean, quality anthro art, and it's definitely something I'd like to see again. I know several veterans of both sites who currently have pages on Weasyl. What the Fur is a furry con in Montreal that puts a PG-13 limit on its art show, so there are people who are interested in a more positive vision of furdom.
    It might seem unrelated but you somehow reminded me of something along the lines I was thinking of. I'm pretty sure it was around the Yerf era that the concept of "Geek social fallacies" as a thing a lot of people are guilty of and need to avoid came out. There was like an entire, really detailed page on it somewhere or maybe a whole site dedicated to it. At least that's when I first remember getting linked to something like that. Basically you're right, there's no formal structure, and I for one think it needs to stay that way because half the problem with these intentional online communities is trying too hard to be too formal and too regulatory, imposing structures where none are wanted or even really needed. But in the absence of that people need to govern themselves and when I say a "constitution" I mean something like that. Not a literal constitution like the Americans have but a set of standards we as individuals hold ourselves too. Basically people have to care about something besides their own self-gratification and the ones who get that need to be living examples I guess.

  5. #25
    I think the word you're looking for is "manifesto", and go for it. If you remember Yerf, then you probably remember the Burned Fur Movement, which had a few good ideas before if devolved into it's own special brand of crazy.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by rbartrop View Post
    I think the word you're looking for is "manifesto", and go for it. If you remember Yerf, then you probably remember the Burned Fur Movement, which had a few good ideas before if devolved into it's own special brand of crazy.
    Yeah, maybe that's it. And it'd fit too because there's this idea floating around of a "milennial manifesto" and I've seen a few people try it. Some are really complex, some are too simple, like bullet-point form, but when I look at the few examples I've seen they all do seem to be trying to say mostly the same things. And that's something I wouldn't feel confident enough to tackle because fuck, that's an entire generation. Furry is something separate from the broader culture and smaller and probably easier to communicate a message like that too.

    The Burned Furs were a little before my time, I think. I remember reading a lot about them before FA was even a spur-of-the-moment gleam of spooge in Fender's eye. But yeah, they were extremists and probably every bit as messed up and rotten as the kinds of people they were supposedly against, just differently enough they could pretend they were superior.

    The superiority complex as well as the inferiority complex are two of our biggest problems as a society. If anything, a genuine "better furry" movement would want to attack that before it even thinks about things like sexuality and whatever else because it never seemed to me like the Burned Furs were mad about anything they couldn't be mad about in their own lives outside the fandom. Obviously they wanted a better fandom and failed. Maybe because they thought the trick was to isolate themselves further in an already isolate subculture. Yeah that's always the ticket. Too bad it's only good for the short bus.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by rbartrop View Post
    I'd certainly welcome any attempt to show furry at its best, and it certainly has been done in the past. Yerf and Artspots were both sites devoted to promoting clean, quality anthro art, and it's definitely something I'd like to see again.
    This, this, and this. Honestly I can't think of anything better that you guys could be doing to create a better community than to replicate one of those two sites. When our team saw Artspots we were very relieved that something like that existed, and got a lot less concerned about the project we were working on. If anyone brought up the furry stigma, we figured we could just point to that site and say, "Nope, they are not all like that," and have proof. Now, that's not the case. We can't point to a furry-themed website that doesn't allow porn anymore, so we had to change our PR strategy.

    That's why we wanted a community like that to exist. I'm sure the furry community has different motivations for having a community like that, but I think the actions to accomplish those different goals will be the same.

  8. #28
    For my part, I've rarely put a huge emphasis on sex in my art even if sexual undertones are probably rampant in them, intentionally or not. So that is definitely something I have always wanted to contribute to. Just I never have been and probably never would be in the position to start a site or have the mind for it. I'm definitely more of a content-guy.

  9. #29
    I understand about wanting to be a content guy. Running a site like the one described would definitely have to be a passion project and require an extremely thick skin.

    The only way I can think of reversing the behavior of a large community is to clearly state the rules of conduct (it's easier to have a fresh community that an existing community do that), and get rid of people that refuse to follow the rules of conduct, but with plenty of prior warnings of course. People require training too and need some time to adapt to a new community. But this is important: all rebuking must be done in private, not publicly! The community does need constant vigilance to moderate itself. Sure a lot of pruning will happen and it will piss some people off, but as people slowly cling to good communities, those communities grow, and eventually become shining specimens of society that other people will want to be a part of.

    However, a furry art site that tries to cater primarily to fans as opposed to the furry art industrial complex (sorry, I don't know what the furry community's term for that is) doesn't seem to last very long. During one of my research stints I recall one of the Weasyl staff saying that not allowing porn and fetish work would kill the site. So I'm wondering if a new furry community is something that needs to be organized by people outside of the fandom just so it doesn't cave in from pressure from the artists who's livelihood it is to create furry commissions. I guess the trick for furry fans—and hopefully enough of the furry artists that the fans look up to—is to figure out a way to cultivate a community with more enjoyable people and art, but do it in a way that artists who make money off of furry fans won't be threatened by the eventual influx of non-furry fans and the disproportionate amount of non-furry artists once the furry community becomes more welcoming. Again, attacks on livelihood produce very powerful emotions, thus the pushback on things like this. I'm not sure how to address that. That might be something the furry community will have to figure out on its own.

  10. #30
    Maybe it's just the bomb ass weed, or more likely I've been slowly coming to this conclusion over the course of the thread/past few days but the more I think about it (and CoyoteCaliente/RedSavage, whose honor I want to do a lot of these projects in, though much of the idea and ideology if it can be called that predates her activity in the fandom, perhaps even her life) the more I realize a lot of what I want to do I have done in subtle ways here and there. I know it now that I've been able to see some of it first hand in some places and hear accounts of it second hand in others. Some of the other pieces may already be falling into place behind closed doors or at least in channels I'm not hooked into. I notice ever since the announcement on FAF's status, most activity has ground to a halt. It's as if everyone is waiting on baited breath, and if I'm being honest, I'm among those no doubt looking for some glimmer of hope in what has been, for many of us, the darkest summer since August 29th, 1997 in a fictional portrayal of one possible future that never happened, much like the real Judgment Day I pray for may never come. At least not in my time.

    I realize now that fixing the fandom, like the rest of the world will take a lot of time and a lot of thankless effort. But it was never about expedience and praise in the first place. Frankly I detest those things most of the time and try to avoid them at all costs so I reckon whatever the outcome, most of my best work will be done behind the scenes and on the art and writing scene when I actually put content out there. There's shitloads of talent and training I have in areas far beyond what you typically see come out of the fandom that could probably make for some pretty provocative and controversial art and to be honest that's one of the things sorely lacking in our neck of the woods (porn =/= controversy to most furries, tbh and it's often times just cheap heat when it does raise eyebrows).

    I kind of already got a head start on the writing and posting front, didn't I. So there's another down. The podcast idea is difficult to pull off quite the way I originally envisioned it right now because almost none of the people interested are ever online or available at the same times. It'd work a lot better in the traditional format if we could coordinate better like we managed to on the old podcasts I cut my teeth on. But that was a different crowd, different circumstances, different motives, everything about those previous operations was way different. And besides, I had no creative control in any of those. There's no need to do things quite that way starting out and the alternative approach I thought up, doing series of one-on-one discussions or perhaps a few folks with me at a time if that's ever doable could make for much more intimate and "real" content than what most others within the fandom and out seem to produce even though it's what a lot of people take more seriously as they bore of the standard fare.

    Some of the meat and potatoes shit that needs to change is largely out of my hands and experience has taught me I make good use of what I already have when I know what I'm doing and have a real direction. Hell, even the "manifesto" idea should at least be given a start before anything on the audio side because that alone is a greater potential source of discussion material and "talking points" if we need that than any one thing out of a situation that changes near-daily. Fuck, it would take almost local-news level resources to cover and attack the crisis as it unfolds and crawls towards a resolution and talk about changes in ourselves and changes we want to see at the same time. Much of our angle already hinges on reflecting on past experiences for comparison. These sessions could be recorded at any time, dated, discussing what is currently relevant, archived, maybe then be useful for people at a later date somehow. We plant few time capsules online anymore it seems and that I feel is a lost art.

    The reason I don't think I'd ever start my own site unless I really needed to for business purposes or something is because one, I always worry it will become another thing that exists for its own sake like I already criticize so much of the internet for being and two, I'd pretty much be putting all my eggs in one basket. But the wrong approach to any one task, I've found, can make the effort so exhausting it might as well have been something equally futile or out of your element as that.

 

 

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