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  1. #81
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weykent View Post
    So, I looked it up, and only one of your submissions had tags added by a user who wasn't you, and its tags were modified by only one user. There were only four tags added: "furry", "hermaphrodite", "solo", and "clothes". Can you explain which of these felt like "trolling" to you?
    Oh, I'm completely sure you looked it up given that I haven't had a hermaphrodite character until today and shi's not in my gallery since nothing is in my gallery as of today because of the community tagging.

  2.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #82
    Quote Originally Posted by pthnrgrrl View Post
    Oh, I'm completely sure you looked it up given that I haven't had a hermaphrodite character until today and shi's not in my gallery since nothing is in my gallery as of today because of the community tagging.
    Is your profile https://www.weasyl.com/~swiftpawz ? Tag information is kept around even for deleted submissions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The only reason I looked this up at all is because I wanted to understand what tags you felt were "trolling". If you can't remember what tags it were you felt that way about, and/or you had a different account this happened on, I can look that up instead to try to jog your memory.

  3. #83
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weykent View Post
    Is your profile https://www.weasyl.com/~swiftpawz ? Tag information is kept around even for deleted submissions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The only reason I looked this up at all is because I wanted to understand what tags you felt were "trolling". If you can't remember what tags it were you felt that way about, and/or you had a different account this happened on, I can look that up instead to try to jog your memory.
    Wouldn't do any good, I wouldn't believe or trust you anyway. Personally, i think you're doing this to shut down the topic and to silence me. I would like to think that I would know my characters and what I posted. So now you've not only said that I'm a liar but wrong.

  4.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #84
    Quote Originally Posted by pthnrgrrl View Post
    Wouldn't do any good, I wouldn't believe or trust you anyway. Personally, i think you're doing this to shut down the topic and to silence me. I would like to think that I would know my characters and what I posted. So now you've not only said that I'm a liar but wrong.
    I'm not calling anyone a liar. I want to understand your position, and with a lack of information provided by you, my only recourse is to attempt to look it up myself. You certainly don't have to trust me to list the tags you felt were "trolling". I think that understanding what tags you take offense to is a very important part of discussing what to do about tagging.

  5. #85
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    As I've said before, since I will no longer converse with that staff member, there should have been an opt-in on community tagging since day one. Since there wasn't, there should now be an opt-out. Quite frankly, I think weasyl gives too much power to the 'viewer' at the expense of the creator and the person commissioning the piece. I don't think that's right or fair. The viewer isn't the one spending the time creating that piece, nor are they the ones spending the money to pay for the piece.

    As I've said before, it's one of the reasons why I keep my pieces off of the site now. The only reason I come here is to see what the artist posted, if they post it here, about the piece I commissioned.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by weykent View Post
    Consider gallery listings. Someone links to a user, not a submission directly, and one user can see some things and the other can't.
    But that is already how it works NOW?

  7.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #87
    Sentimental Machine Fiz's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by pthnrgrrl View Post
    Wouldn't do any good, I wouldn't believe or trust you anyway. Personally, i think you're doing this to shut down the topic and to silence me. I would like to think that I would know my characters and what I posted. So now you've not only said that I'm a liar but wrong.
    No one is calling you a liar. I'm not even sure what you would be being called a liar about? You said you got trolling/incorrect tags, and Weykent checked logs to see what tag changes you received. He was trying to figure out which tags were added to your submissions that you felt were inaccurate, abusive or otherwise problematic. If someone is getting abusive or purposely inaccurate tags, we want to know so the staff can intervene if necessary. Nobody even said anything regarding your characters, so I'm not sure where that part came into play.

    No one is trying to be silenced either. We wouldn't be opening up community discussions such as this one if we didn't want to hear what people's thoughts were.

  8.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Swanda View Post
    But that is already how it works NOW?
    No. There is user-visible information on the submissions, whether it's tags or rating or whatever else. If there was some subset of "hidden" tags which are used for filtering but not displayed to anyone, there would be no user-visible information about why it was blocked.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by weykent View Post
    No. There is user-visible information on the submissions, whether it's tags or rating or whatever else. If there was some subset of "hidden" tags which are used for filtering but not displayed to anyone, there would be no user-visible information about why it was blocked.
    But that IS how it works now?
    The user not blocking will see submissions in the gallery overview that the person tag-blocking wouldn't.
    It is literally the exact same thing that is happening now, that would happen then.
    If the user then links one of the hidden submissions to the other, a warning will appear telling the submission is hidden from your view due to a tag they have blocked. I'm not sure how more user-visible the information could get than that warning page?

  10. #90
    I have a feeling I might regret stepping into the fray, but here goes anyway.

    It seems to me that this issue is pretty well divided on who is for community-tagging, and who is against it. Those that are against it tend to be artists, and those that are for it typically are not artists.

    Actually, let's not say 'artists' right off the bat, because that seems to leave out people who submit stories or other content. I'll say 'content creators' instead, I think. CCs for shorthand. Still with me? Okay cool.

    CCs probably, for the most part, feel edgy about letting the community at large have the ability to alter their uploads. That's essentially what adding tags to a submission is - changing the original upload to suit the needs of someone other than the original poster. And really, given that the furry community can be somewhat abusive or dismissive to artists, that doesn't really surprise me. People get their art (or whatever other content) stolen and redistributed and doctored pretty frequently in this fandom. Even if it's never happened to you personally, just witnessing instances of it can put you on guard. Is it really any wonder that CCs are apprehensive about this tagging system?

    I understand the idea behind it; People can add a tag to something they don't want to see, so that that particular submission gets snared by the tag-block system (or whatever it's called), a sort of trigger-warning helper. Then of course you have the idea that, if any user can add a tag to any submission, that submission is whatever-percent more likely to be found with submissions of similar subject matter. Both seem like Positive Ideas from the outside.

    So there's two sides to the coin. On one side, you have CCs feeling encroached upon by this system if it stays in place as-is, and on the other side you have non-CC users feeling like their options to be comfortable on the site are diminished if the system changes or is eliminated. Neither side is going to be completely happy (but I think we've all come to that conclusion haha!).

    Here's a probably controversial and unpopular thought: Weasyl is, first and foremost, a content-driven site. Unless I'm wrong (and I might be!) this site was created so CCs had a place that wasn't FA (or the ink one or whatever) to upload their content, and have a community of people that could view, comment on, fav, and discuss it. Yes? So, without CCs, Weasyl would not exist as it does. Right? If that's the case, and if this site counts on CCs uploading their content, shouldn't it strive to make it CC-friendly? (Of course, I'm an artist, so my view is going to be skewed in that direction. And I'm in no way suggesting that non-CCs don't count, or don't matter, or don't deserve to be heard or to weigh in on things. So please don't assume that's my viewpoint, or put words in my mouth about it!) And yes, without users to comment on (or fave or whatever) the content, most CCs would lose interest and drift away. Non-CCs are important too! But if the spring-board for this site was as a 'social gallery', wouldn't it make sense to think 'How is this rule going to affect the content creators in a beneficial way, so they continue or increase adding content to the site?' from the get-go?

    Let's get back to the issues of having community tagging (at least in my opinion).

    There's going to be instances of abuse here. Not many, perhaps, because Weasyl is still a relatively small site I think. But it HAS cropped up (ie most complaints I've seen involve trans images being labeled with 'cuntboy' and 'futa' and things that aren't really what the CC had in mind when uploading) in places, leaving the person who uploaded their piece feeling either misunderstood or maybe even trolled. And at some point, I'm sure there's going to be flat-out trolling via community tagging, especially if there's bad blood between a certain CC and a certain user. I mean, come on, the furry community is ripe with personal conflicts!

    But even if a tag is added in a way that the user thought was 'helpful', if it's unwelcome or unwanted by the CC, then it's harmful to the CC.

    Personally, I don't think my gallery is going to be subject to tag-abuse. But just because I don't personally don't foresee it doesn't mean it won't happen to other people. So if you're about to reply with 'but if you're not worried, why are you complaining?', be prepared for me to copy/paste that second sentence in this paragraph.

    I can, however, see the likelihood of someone 'mistagging' my work, or adding tags I'm not comfortable with. I'll give you an example, since examples usually make things click better:

    I'm somewhat well-known in the micro/macro community, because I draw a lot of micro art. One of the things that usually goes hand-in-hand with micro art is vore. And I am not interested in or comfortable with vore. I am not, and have never been, a vore artist. But let's say I've drawn a piece that has a micro character lounging around in the mouth of a regular-sized character. No chewing, no swallowing, no blood, maybe not even excessive saliva. Mouth-play, I would call it. But here comes TinyFurry* to my gallery, and TinyFurry is interested in vore. He sees my mouth-play piece, and likes it! 'Oh, it should have a tag on there for vore!', thinks TinyFurry, who then helpfully (in his mind) adds the tag 'vore'.

    Then, until I log in and get the notification** that a tag has been added to my piece, and can then delete it, my art is being associated with a subject matter I'm not comfortable with. I specifically did not add that tag, because I don't want the association; But because a user added it for me (and not maliciously!), it's now on MY hands to remove it. Extra work for me, with the downside of 'Oh no, how many people saw this tag and are now thinking vore is something I do or will do?'.

    And yes, I am well aware that people will see my art alongside other micro/macro pieces with vore content, either here or on FA or whatever other place on the net, and make that connection. I get it, really. But if this is a gallery that I started, and is under my control, I should have the ability to try and dissociate with vore as much as I can or feel comfortable doing. Chances are, TinyFurry might have added my piece to his fav's anyway, so his buddies that also like micro stuff would probably see it, vore-tag or no vore-tag.

    But, see the issue? TinyFurry did nothing mean-spirited, but it created discomfort and extra work for me. Now I'm less comfortable and enthusiastic about using this site.

    I think the idea of community tagging appeals to enough people, even CCs, that it should go on. However, I think it needs to be regulated more than 'CC has the ability to remove tag and stop users from removing CC's tag'.

    If there's not going to be an opt-out for CC (and it looks like there won't be), then there should be the ability for the CC to approve tags before they are attached to the submission. Not only will this prevent the CC from having their work associated with something they don't approve of or aren't comfortable with, but it might make them consider other tags they could possibly add.

    Does that mean some CCs will never allow community tags to filter through? Yes.

    Does that mean some pieces will get clicked on and 'trigger' someone who sees something they don't like? Yes.

    Does this mean some pieces won't be snatched by a search because they don't have the x, y, or z tag? Yes.

    But, as an artist, I should have final say in how my art is presented on this site. If that means an image doesn't show up on as many searches, that's fine. If that means someone will 'accidentally' click on my piece that features something they don't like, so they decide to stop watching me, that's also fine. The internet is full of things that piss off or scare or squick people, and chances are you're going to come across something you think is bleh without meaning to. That's reality. I know I've done it plenty of times! But my reaction is to hit the back button and go look at a picture of a pug to make it better.

    I'm glad that the tag-blocking exists, because it WILL help a lot of users avoid plenty of things they want to avoid. But it's never going to be 100%, regardless of whether or not community tagging exists. Be thankful that there is some control over it, and allow CCs to maintain control over their own galleries.

    TL/DR please implement a 'user must approve added tags' feature.



    *if there really is someone named TinyFurry on this site, then I apologize XD

    **thank goodness that we have the option to remove tags, good call on the staff's part with that!

 

 

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