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  1.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #121
    Sophomore Matt's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Socks the Fox View Post
    Personally I think that a decent middle ground would be this:
    Tag-what-you-know based tagging. If an artist says it's not vore, don't tag it as such even if it kind of looks like it.
    CC controlled per-submission tag blacklists. If a CC doesn't want someone tagging their work with vore, they can tag it with say -vore and nobody would be allowed to tag it that way (and would otherwise behave as though the tag didn't exist)
    CC controlled per-submission tagging opt-out. If this is enabled, their submission would only ever show up in their gallery and people's favorites. It would not appear on the front page, it would not appear in critique (even if flagged for it), and it would not appear in search.

    The options would have to be set on a per-submission basis, the blacklists because it's submission specific and the opt-out because a CC might want certain submissions to be available to search.

    I would advise against account-wide versions of these options to dissuade their use.
    I'm a big fan of everything you've laid out here.
    Look at all the fun we're having.

  2. #122
    ~Kupo~ Moogle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bornes View Post
    This site doesn't fit your functions-- that's fine. This site is not for you. That doesn't make it a bad site. It just make it a site that you don't mesh well with. Much like you probably wouldn't join facebook if you weren't interested in having a network of friends, you shouldn't be on Weasyl if you're not interested in the community aspects of the site.
    Yesyesyes, so well said. I'd 'this' your whole post 100 times over if I could.

  3. #123
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    You have made it abundantly clear throughout this entire thread that you hate this site.

    at no point in time did I say I hate the site

    Do I dislike features? Yes. I dislike that I have to keep 2 separate formats of my writings on my PC every time I update it because Weasyl doesn't want .docx or at least .rtf. I dislike that the 'community' has the power to tag my art as they see fit.

    but that doesn't mean that i hate the site. how dare you put words into my mouth.

  4. #124
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XoPachi View Post
    You are highly flippant towards staff though.
    Only one staff that got flippant towards me first.

    again, doesn't mean I hate the staff.

    but i can't stop people from thinking erroneous things now can I?

  5. #125
    Not here to join in discussion or debate about this (nothing against the users, keep doing you), I want to put my opinion to the staff here though.
    The community tagging feature, in its current form, is the reason I don't use Weasyl at all. I am sad to admit this, as I do really love this site and respect the admins/mods and their work, but the system has flaws I can't really get past. In my short time posting to the main site, I did face a notable amount of tagging abuse, and users I did not know and had no prior history with would engage in "edit wars" with me. (I understand that blocked users cannot edit tags anymore? That's a great step in the right direction)
    There's the additional issue with inaccurate tagging, which while I can agree with the notion that community tagging enables better filtering and availability to the audience, can still poorly or inappropriately label an image, especially when tagging for genitalia or gender identity. Obviously, there are effective ways to combat this particular issue without large site revisions simply with guidelines, cautionary notes in the image description, etc. However, a really good way to bypass this issue, I think, is with the suggestion by Socks the Fox: "If a CC doesn't want someone tagging their work with vore, they can tag it with say -vore and nobody would be allowed to tag it that way (and would otherwise behave as though the tag didn't exist)"
    Honestly, I agree with all of what Socks the Fox said. I do admit I would like an option to opt-out of community tagging account-wide (I strongly prefer to be the only one tagging my art), but an option for specific images, or even specific tags, would be perfect in my eyes.

    Thank you guys so much for putting this issue on the table. I have wanted to come back to Weasyl for a long time and likely will jump back into the party when your community tagging system is revised

  6. #126
    Considering this hurts a lot of trans people who are being misgendered in tags (or being tagged as slurs!) there should be an option to disable tags from people who aren't friends.

  7. #127
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitsukiJuran View Post
    Considering this hurts a lot of trans people who are being misgendered in tags (or being tagged as slurs!) there should be an option to disable tags from people who aren't friends.
    Now there'd be a compromise I could see happening. it makes sense to me.

  8. #128
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    So I read up since my last post and thought about it some more in the shower. I have two (more) thoughts on the matter, one leading into the other. Note that some of this involves descriptions of erotic art.

    Part 1:

    What about a policy for community tagging of, instead of "Tag what you see" or "Tag what you know", "Tag what it is"?

    What I mean by this is add tags for, for example, "penis", "scrotum", "labia", "breasts", instead of "male", "female", "hermaphrodite". Leave gender up to what the CC chose. Another example would be to tag "spots" or "stripes" and leave the species up to the CC. The biggest problem I've read so far (please add other experiences if you have any!) is that of improperly labeling gender, which is tricky because gender is not necessarily related to visible, physical attributes. Saying "tag what you see" is annoyingly vague in that context, and you wind up with: "I see a futa!" "Well no it's a transgender person" "But that's not what I see!" "Futa means hermaphrodite, you don't see labia!" and so on. Another example would be to tag "crotch bulge" or "cleavage" and leave it to the artist to determine what the sex/gender of the character is, or (Is it a penis or big labia in the underwear? Is it an intersex person or a guy with really huge pecs?)

    "Tag what it is" would be a stricter subset, locked to the context that this is an art (visual, writing, musical, etc, all kinds of art) site, and that the art is an expression of the artist, but it's also a community art site, designed to help build up a community around that art. I'm an artist. I'm also a viewer of art by other people. In both contexts, despite feeling there are both pros and cons to community tagging, it's a feature I want. In a perfect world, artists would tag every piece correctly the first time but unfortunately that doesn't happen. Community tagging is a feature to help artists too, not just those appreciating art.


    Part 2:

    "Tag what it is" leads into a bigger problem, though. It's half related to this debate, half not. That's the idea of grouping. If you have a picture with two or more characters, and you follow the "tag what it is" philosophy, in a picture you might wind up with a cis-male character and cis-female character. So the image would be tagged "penis, scrotum, breasts, labia". If the artist does not tag the individual genders, you can't search for works involving cis-men and cis-women, but exclude intersex characters. And if there are multiple characters that overlap, e.g. a three way between two men and a woman, you can't necessarily search for just ones involving 'straight' sex. You can start tagging orientations of sex, but it gets even more complicated when you're dealing with transgender and nonbinary characters.

    One possible implementation is to provide character groupings. For each character, you can create a set of tags. Maybe you have a picture of a man crossdressing with a woman in it. You could search for or filter out men in skirts if it was tagged like:
    Code:
    { male, corset, skirt, high-heel boots }, { female, slacks, dress shirt, dress shoes }, ...
    Or maybe you have a picture with an intersex character who is very well endowed with a male character that is average. Some people want to search for that, others are uncomfortable with such things.
    Code:
    { male, penis, muscles, vest }, { intersex, hyper, big penis, big breasts, nude }, ...
    Tall woman but short man? That can be adorable! If you want to search for it, instead of doing tall_muscular_woman or some horrible mashup of tags, you would do:
    Code:
    { male, short, ... }, { female, tall, ... }, ...
    And there you go!

    However, I've done web development before, both on the front end and database/back-end. I can think of ways to handle that. I'm not sure I can think of ways to handle that efficiently when you have a large site like Weasyl. On FA (Not sure if there's a count on Weasyl I can find) I've uploaded over 1400 submissions since 2009. FA recently-ish hit 15 million submissions. If Weasyl expects to grow at all it needs to be able to handle such a thing. FA didn't even have a search function for a good chunk of time because search wasn't efficient enough to handle such a high load of searches with such a large amount of content.


    Aside:

    FA didn't always have keywords like it does now, and it still doesn't have keyword (tag) filtering. So while Weasyl doesn't necessarily need these things to be useful, it certainly is a major differentiator. These are many of the features that make me prefer Weasyl over FA (although I still prefer some of InkBunny's features over Weasyl's. Sorry. :3 ). If Weasyl just copies existing sites, what incentive is there for a community to grow on Weasyl? "FA but with folders!" is obviously not enough, as there still are people that refuse to upload to Weasyl, not even in addition to FA. It's not that they won't leave FA, it's that they won't spend the 15 seconds to copy and paste the information from FA's submission upload page to Weasyl's.

  9. #129
    Regular Bornes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XoPachi View Post
    Bornes, I've been reading your responses and one particular post didn't sit well with me.
    I rather don't appreciate your generalization that people upset with the tagging situation are trying to be obtuse and don't understand Weasyl's goal.



    Some of us don't appreciate the tagging system and will settle for a compromise, but wouldn't care either way in the grand scheme of things. Someone like me.
    Your stance which, in my interpretation, amounts to "don't like it? Fuck off, you don't belong here" is bothersome. It's not "community driven" to just want to brush people to the side or say they need to be quiet because they're not entirely in lockstep with your ideals. Especially if they might actually wish to work with the mods/community in a calm and open manner to develop a decent middle ground. Which might I add, I'm for all of the ideas presented by both staff and the community in this thread. You just assumed everyone unsatisfied is trying to give the community a hard time.

    I had my specific reasons for joining Weasyl. I have specific reasons why I'd prefer to have somewhat more or complete control over my tags. Reasons which I've explained privately to the moderation team and eagerly await a response. I make the lowest common denominator of furry work and one glance at my gallery will instantly show you what side of the site I cater to. There are certain sub sections of that audience I'd rather avoid. If I don't get it my way, I'll deal with it. No fuss, no muss.
    That's great and that's what I was saying-- I'm sure a good compromise would be made (my opinion from the second page has changed since I read more and my last post).

    If you read more carefully into my post, I stated:
    Almost every content creator here that is firmly against community tagging seems to think "Well I'm here and I'm more important because I'm a content creator, so I do what I want."
    I am not talking about creators like you who are looking for (and eager to accept) a compromise. I am only speaking to people who are 100% against the tagging system.

    I apologize if it came off as "If you don't like how it is exactly right now, get out."

    It was supposed to come off as "If you don't like the idea of community tagging, this site is not for you, because community tagging is not going away."

    There is a thread in Site Discussion that I have been watching for quite some time that probably spurred this thread. I think a post made there is extremely relevant and should be restated in this thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Swanda View Post
    The real question about who should have full rights over the tags and who shouldn't is this: Is this site meant for artists or not?
    If you wanna remove the artists absolute control over tags by standard (and not just after abusing the system) then the answer is No.

    Yes this system works fine on many other platforms, but the reality of those platforms also is that they are meant for watchers first and creators second.
    It's something we should think about and it's something I mentioned in one of my previous posts but probably din't word it very well.

  10.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Webster View Post
    <snip>
    I love the idea of trees/groups/graphs of tags, but it seems like it would be more difficult to establish standards for, and more difficult to specify search queries for. Your suggestion seems to be a pretty okay way to write out the search queries, but how do you specify interactions between groupings? When I was thinking about this in the past, I started thinking about graphical point-and-click query builders that let you build a directed graph that you'd use to search for a similar graph, but that was when I was thinking about directed graphs of tags and not just groups.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodhound View Post
    That would be a good implementation! I mean, personally I would still rather see the original uploader have to approve tags as they come in, but this is a good middle-ground. If the CC comes in hours or days later, they can still delete the tag... but at least they know it's not automatically visible on their submission.

    Here's a question: Is it possible to 'hide' user-added tags? For example, if TinyFur adds the vore tag to my submission, it will show up in searches or get snared by the tag-blocker (and I would get a notification that it was added), but is never visible on the submission itself (regardless of extra clicking). Is that something that could, conceivably, be done? If so, add it to your pile for the staffers and coders to toss around.
    Anything is possible, and that's even something that wouldn't be hard to implement, but I'm not a fan of hiding that kind of information from users entirely. https://forums.weasyl.com/vbulletin/...ll=1#post89318 is the most detailed explanation I gave of it, I think. You'd be okay with a tag like "vore" being used to find/filter your submissions iff it wasn't user-visible at all?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MitsukiJuran View Post
    Considering this hurts a lot of trans people who are being misgendered in tags (or being tagged as slurs!) there should be an option to disable tags from people who aren't friends.
    Another idea being considered is not allowing anyone except the submitter and staff to add gender-related tags. How would you feel about that?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueJaySF View Post
    Anonymizing the identity of community taggers save to the staff may require an extra step on the uploader's part in contacting a staffer, but that's hardly any different than having to block the community tagger on the creator's own or otherwise discourage them from tagging the uploads.
    It's quite different. A number of people (in this thread and elsewhere) have expressed the sentiment that "anyone adding tags to my submissions will be blocked", and anonymizing edits prevents this. If someone added abusive tags and the submitter contacted staff, I would think the action taken would be "evaluate if that someone should have their tagging privileges revoked", not "tell the submitter who did it".
    Last edited by weykent; 08-19-2015 at 04:01 AM.

 

 

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