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  1.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Ketsuban View Post
    I can't help but wonder if this is a knee-jerk reaction to PurpleKecleon pulling their art from e621 because the site used their “tag what you see” policy as a defence when PK complained about people persistently misgendering their characters.
    Considering this is the first time I've heard of that, I don't think it's the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ketsuban View Post
    If you're interested in protecting artist's rights and control of their work, perhaps you could do something about the fact the design of the site doesn't reflect “by you or for you”—It still asserts on both the front page and the submission page that whoever uploaded a thing created it as well, rather than saying “uploaded by” and providing the uploader uploaders the option of specifying the original creator and source. (Taking that to its logical conclusion, I question the utility of “collections” since as it stands you can only collect a work uploaded by someone else on Weasyl. Something uploaded for you on FA or InkBunny? Too bad, better violate their intellectual property rights without even intending to.)
    You mean just that it says "by {user}" without specifying "uploaded by {user}"? There's definitely a lot of things that could/should change around attribution. "Upload works for you/by you" is kind of a cheap hack in lieu of proper attribution. Collections, as well, could use some work.

    There are certainly a lot of things across the entire site which could use work, but right now, I think tags are the primary focus.
    Last edited by weykent; 08-18-2015 at 07:09 PM.

  2. #112
    Regular Bornes's Avatar
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    I have read this entire thread in full and I think the staff is going to decide what's best based on all the suggestions and compromises presented.

    However something that hasn't been mentioned yet that I would like to see implemented is, users who tag stuff remain anonymous to the content creator.

    No matter what weasyl does, some artists are not going to like community tagging. Creators may complain about non CCs having too much power over their work via tagging, but if this site's mission is to have Community tagging, and artists continually block taggers just for helping tag, then that's going to make community tagging crash and burn faster than it already is.

    I like community tagging, I like a lot of things about this site, and someone mentioned earlier about how a lot of people's complaints can be attributed to "culture shock." I think that person is absolutely right that this is what is happening.

    Mods should know the identity of taggers and if someone is serial tagging a creator's work, the creator can report that and the mod can figure it out. But I, personally, do not want to be essentially banned from seeing someone's work just because I had the audacity to help publicize it by (what I thought was) a helpful tag.

    What do you even do in that situation? There's not really a way to defend yourself aside from just being scared off from tagging anything ever again. Which is what appears to be the case, when you look at the stats one of the mods posted about how many users there are and how precious few of them have bothered to tag something that wasn't their's.

    I myself can only remember adding a tag to one image /ever/.

    Edited to add:
    Weasyl is supposed to be an art community. It seems to me community tagging is a way to make that happen. Almost every content creator here that is firmly against community tagging seems to think "Well I'm here and I'm more important because I'm a content creator, so I do what I want."
    What weasyl needs to decide is if that statement is actually true. And if it isn't, then we need to discourage these content creators who destroy the culture Weasyl is going for from being active (or even joining) the site.

    If someone wants to post art and have full control over it down to tagging, which to me is pretty innocuous, then maybe they shouldn't be posting on Weasyl. This is not the site for them and that's fine. I thought a community was supposed to have many people on equal standing, not content creators on a pedastal and non-CCs sitting around having to be thankful there are any CCs at all.

    But this also goes into Weasyl's problems with advertising. You have only advertised to furries, yet you remain steadfast that this is a general art site. I am willing to bet more non-furry artists wouldn't feel as power-hungry over their tags. If weasyl would advertise to non-furries and get a more even distribution of CCs that are furry vs. non-furry, we might be less divided on this issue as a whole.
    Last edited by Bornes; 08-18-2015 at 07:24 PM.

  3. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by weykent View Post



    First, thank you for your post on the subject. I think you bring up some interesting points!

    Let me make a suggestion, because I wonder how you or other would feel. What if community-added tags weren't directly shown on the submission, but required some extra clicks to see? The submitter-chosen tags would still be shown on the submission directly, but now you're not directly associated with what else the community has chosen.
    I don't think I'm following, exactly... Could you explain it step-by-step, and who sees what? Feel free to use my example with vore and TinyFurry, if that'll help!

  4.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodhound View Post
    I don't think I'm following, exactly... Could you explain it step-by-step, and who sees what? Feel free to use my example with vore and TinyFurry, if that'll help!
    • TinyFurry adds the "vore" tag to one of your submissions.
    • You get a notification, which you read at some point in the future.
    • Immediately after the tag is added, people can find and filter your submission using the "vore" tag.
    • When anyone visits the submission page, the "vore" tag is not shown at all; a user has to click on a "view community-added tags" link or button to see it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bornes View Post
    Weasyl is supposed to be an art community. It seems to me community tagging is a way to make that happen. Almost every content creator here that is firmly against community tagging seems to think "Well I'm here and I'm more important because I'm a content creator, so I do what I want."
    What weasyl needs to decide is if that statement is actually true. And if it isn't, then we need to discourage these content creators who destroy the culture Weasyl is going for from being active (or even joining) the site.

    If someone wants to post art and have full control over it down to tagging, which to me is pretty innocuous, then maybe they shouldn't be posting on Weasyl. This is not the site for them and that's fine. I thought a community was supposed to have many people on equal standing, not content creators on a pedastal and non-CCs sitting around having to be thankful there are any CCs at all.
    This is really well said. I definitely couldn't speak for the whole staff on where the site as a whole will end up on this statement. But, in the end, it's impossible to please everyone, and it's foolish to try.

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    P.S. I love the idea of making tag edits anonymous to non-staff.

  5. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by weykent View Post
    • TinyFurry adds the "vore" tag to one of your submissions.
    • You get a notification, which you read at some point in the future.
    • Immediately after the tag is added, people can find and filter your submission using the "vore" tag.
    • When anyone visits the submission page, the "vore" tag is not shown at all; a user has to click on a "view community-added tags" link or button to see it.
    That would be a good implementation! I mean, personally I would still rather see the original uploader have to approve tags as they come in, but this is a good middle-ground. If the CC comes in hours or days later, they can still delete the tag... but at least they know it's not automatically visible on their submission.

    Here's a question: Is it possible to 'hide' user-added tags? For example, if TinyFur adds the vore tag to my submission, it will show up in searches or get snared by the tag-blocker (and I would get a notification that it was added), but is never visible on the submission itself (regardless of extra clicking). Is that something that could, conceivably, be done? If so, add it to your pile for the staffers and coders to toss around.
    Last edited by Bloodhound; 08-18-2015 at 08:12 PM.

  6. #116
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bornes View Post
    We need to discourage these content creators who destroy the culture Weasyl is going for from being active (or even joining) the site.
    thank you. this and

    If someone wants to post art and have full control over it down to tagging, which to me is pretty innocuous, then maybe they shouldn't be posting on Weasyl. This is not the site for them and that's fine. I thought a community was supposed to have many people on equal standing, not content creators on a pedastal and non-CCs sitting around having to be thankful there are any CCs at all. [/QUOTE]


    Are why I'll be deleting my Weasyl and telling people not to come to this site.

    You've just proven that non-creators want all the control, get it and are not held on equal footing to CCs.

    Which is the problem.

    Did you pay for my art? No
    Did you pay for the time I take to color it? No.

    So why should you get to dictate any additional tags? Because it's a "community" ? that's hogwash. the community didn't make the art, I did.

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    P.S. I love the idea of making tag edits anonymous to non-staff
    of course you do. gives more power to the viewers and none to the creators.

  7. #117
    Personally I think that a decent middle ground would be this:
    Tag-what-you-know based tagging. If an artist says it's not vore, don't tag it as such even if it kind of looks like it.
    CC controlled per-submission tag blacklists. If a CC doesn't want someone tagging their work with vore, they can tag it with say -vore and nobody would be allowed to tag it that way (and would otherwise behave as though the tag didn't exist)
    CC controlled per-submission tagging opt-out. If this is enabled, their submission would only ever show up in their gallery and people's favorites. It would not appear on the front page, it would not appear in critique (even if flagged for it), and it would not appear in search.

    The options would have to be set on a per-submission basis, the blacklists because it's submission specific and the opt-out because a CC might want certain submissions to be available to search.

    I would advise against account-wide versions of these options to dissuade their use.

  8. #118
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socks the Fox View Post
    CC controlled per-submission tagging opt-out
    Why only a per submission?

    What's wrong with a tagging opt-out period?

    It'd be a waste of time and CC energy to have to go in per submission and say "yes tag this, no don't tag that". just make it system wide.

    - - - Updated - - -

    This is where I stand. I had a lot of hope for Weasyl, but unless they let artists disallow community tagging, I will be staying with FA until it burns to the ground, and only keep Weasyl as a tiny side gallery.

    Random people don't get to mislabel MY ART. It's mine, I own the rights to it. I shouldn't have to undertake a bunch of extra steps just to get it displayed correctly.

    DodgerGreywing over in this thread agrees with me

  9. #119
    Anonymizing the identity of community taggers save to the staff may require an extra step on the uploader's part in contacting a staffer, but that's hardly any different than having to block the community tagger on the creator's own or otherwise discourage them from tagging the uploads.

    A setup allowing uploaders to either accept or decline community tags proposed to their submissions (per tag and per submission), which still anonymizes the community tagger's identity, is a reasonable compromise for both sides: it prevents mistagging and potential abuse but allows the uploader to be given greater exposure to potential fans and clients and can more accurately label a work. Obviously neither side is infallible so a system wherein individual tags from a community tagger can be accepted or rejected per submission would accomplish a lot for both parties for a variety of reasons.

    Having an option to auto-reject all proposed tags by all community members on all uploads on that system would satisfy the desires of some users to prevent incorrect tagging, be it malicious or simply from someone mistaken in their attempts to help define an upload.

    Of course, this kind of tagging system overhaul would likely only happen if Weasyl ever moved past beta stage, so for now it's a pipe dream.
    Sega does what Nintendon't.

  10. #120
    Regular Bornes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pthnrgrrl View Post
    thank you. this and
    If someone wants to post art and have full control over it down to tagging, which to me is pretty innocuous, then maybe they shouldn't be posting on Weasyl. This is not the site for them and that's fine. I thought a community was supposed to have many people on equal standing, not content creators on a pedastal and non-CCs sitting around having to be thankful there are any CCs at all.

    Are why I'll be deleting my Weasyl and telling people not to come to this site.

    You've just proven that non-creators want all the control, get it and are not held on equal footing to CCs.

    Which is the problem.

    Did you pay for my art? No
    Did you pay for the time I take to color it? No.

    So why should you get to dictate any additional tags? Because it's a "community" ? that's hogwash. the community didn't make the art, I did.

    - - - Updated - - -



    of course you do. gives more power to the viewers and none to the creators.
    I fail to see how tagging creations is "all the power."
    You have the power to create (or not create) your art.
    You have the power to block users for no reason at all if you feel like it, and prevent those users from contacting you in any way.
    You have the power to upload (or not upload) your art here.

    You have made it abundantly clear throughout this entire thread that you hate this site. Well I'm not sorry to tell you that this site is not here to conform to you. This site was made specifically as a community. From Weaysl's own about page:
    Weasyl is a social gallery website designed for artists, writers, musicians, and more to share their work with other artists and fans. We seek to bring the creative world together in one easy to use, friendly, community website.
    Putting art here and then demanding the community has nothing to do with it is not very social. Weasyl is NOT an image storage site. It is a community-driven site, with community-driven ideals, run in a way they want it to run, which at this moment, is community-driven.

    Not having community tags is not community driven. Weasyl staff has made it quite clear that community tagging is also not going to go away. So we need to come up with a compromise. Of community tagging being here, but also not stepping on too many toes. But in doing this, not taking it completely away.

    This site is give and take for CCs and non alike. Why do people post art on websites like Weasyl? To get more coverage, to get people see, fave, and comment the art. On Weasyl, the primary way this is done is through tagging. If you don't want your art to be seen, favorited, and commented by anybody, go to dropbox, imgur, or photobucket and create a private account.

    This site doesn't fit your functions-- that's fine. This site is not for you. That doesn't make it a bad site. It just make it a site that you don't mesh well with. Much like you probably wouldn't join facebook if you weren't interested in having a network of friends, you shouldn't be on Weasyl if you're not interested in the community aspects of the site.
    Last edited by Bornes; 08-18-2015 at 09:20 PM.

 

 

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