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  1.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #281
    Retired Staff piñardilla's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swanda View Post
    I think this might just be the last I post on this thread for now, since I don't have any new ideas to add and discussing with weykent is clearly pointless anyhow.
    They have made it abundantly clear at this point that they don't give a flying fuck about artists and their comfort. The only thing that matters is what they create and other peoples ability to find it.
    "If I don't personally understand it, it's wrong and must be disregarded."
    I will just have to be content with them not getting the final say in this matter and put my trust in the Directors.
    Having had multiple conversations with weykent and other members of our devteam in the past, I've noticed that they have a culture of being able to ask and discuss very pointed questions to each other in a detached, dispassionate manner. It seems like something that just comes from working in tech, and I understand that if you're not used to it that it can come across as adversarial. Try not to read too much into that, though. They communicate this way because they have to question everything to find out what specific things are important and what things are not actually important so that they can reach an optimal way to implement things.

    Right now, you seem to be saying that you won't be happy unless you can prevent people who search for certain things to be able to find and see your art, even if you do actually draw those things (and even if that's not what you're saying, you're asking for features that can be used that way). That's something that impacts the rest of the community and makes Weasyl less useful to them, so weykent is probing your responses pretty hard because he's trying to find if there are any solutions that would satisfy you just as well without having such an impact on everyone else.
         
       
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  2. #282
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piñardilla View Post
    if there are any solutions that would satisfy you just as well without having such an impact on everyone else.
    But that's the crux of the problem, isn't it? any solution is going to have an impact on anyone else.

    Weykent says an opt-in/out solution won't make things better (but then doesn't say why) well, that has an impact on me.

    Community tagging, has an impact to the point that people either don't bother with or tell people that they won't accept their tags.

    So really then isn't this whole thing pointless, as I've been saying.

  3.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #283
    [Logic is Erratic] Taw's Avatar
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    Going to chime in, been watching the thread for a few days now and have read over everyone's responses so far. Keep in mind that these thoughts and opinions are my own, and may not reflect how things change or develop on the site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swanda View Post
    I'm saying at this point, you don't have to understand it just to respect it. Just for the love of, why can you not respect that not everyone understand, sees or feel about this the same way that you do, and maybe you'll never understand why and that is Okay, but at least just respect it? I've said before that I honestly don't know how to somehow explain this to you if you don't get it by now.

    But, no to your question, that isn't all I meant by it, and in the end it doesn't matter.
    The CC should be allowed to removed a search tag for ANY one reason, not matter how illogical it is to You, and them doing so would be OKAY.
    This isn't hard to comprehend?

    And now instead of disregarding me and others completely, how about you answer my question?
    Why is the ability to find art is more important than those who created it?
    Tags are what accurately describe what the image is about and what content is depicted in it. This isn't an issue of who is more important, as this affects everyone, watcher and CC alike. If you ever have used our search or blacklist feature, this entire issue affects you regardless of if you create content regularly and upload it, commission content and upload it, or watch people who do so.

    The importance here is that by restricting who can add tags to content, it creates and/or increases two problems with other systems we already use:

    1. Blacklisting - if a submitter removes any actual relevant tags off a submission, blacklists become useless. You will not be able to filter content you do not want to see if people remove relevant tags off their submissions.

    2. Search - our entire search feature relies on tags, so there is still importance on finding art. If everyone puts the bare minimum tags onto their work, our search feature becomes essentially useless. No one will find anything that may interest them, and advanced functions of the search tool (+feline -lion for example, if you want to search all felines but lions) become useless.

    The only way I can see a complete opt-out of community tagging working is if that person's submissions no longer appear in search/browse because it would severely affect blacklisting. Loads of people already don't tag their works accurately, so this wouldn't help improve the situation in any way. Weasyl is built to be a community website, this is the equivalent of using tumblr, posting something, and then getting angry if someone reblogs your post without your permission. It's a core feature we have, and we want to improve it so everyone can enjoy the site.

    By saying that the CC should be able to remove any tags for any reason off their works, how would you feel if you blacklisted 'scat' for example, and an artist removed that tag off all their work (with their pictures actually depicting this content), and never added it on uploads? You would essentially be forced to see it without any way to deal with it other than blocking them. Which means if they post other art you do enjoy, you will never see it ever again because you don't like one other thing, and cannot filter it. We already have people barely tagging art, and having blacklists struggle to work. On the flip side, if you were searching for a tag, you might never discover an artist, because they don't accurately tag their work or allow others to add any relevant tags.

    Both of these issues don't affect just content creators, it affects everyone, site-wide. In my personal opinion, everyone is equal, both CC and user/watchers. Watchers come here for the CCs and friends, and the CCs are here for their audience and friends. Weasyl is meant to be a place for both of these types, not just one. You can be both a CC and a watcher as well, they aren't exclusive.

    However, we understand the concern about adding tags to submissions and that artists don't want this. This is why we are looking to improve the system and come to a compromise that people are happy with, that also benefits the entirety of the site as a whole, not just one side of it. People are telling us constantly that opt-out is what they want, we've heard it. We've said why we don't think it's a good idea. We're looking for a compromise that works for everyone so we're trying to move past this notion of "I want x" "Okay, but that wont work, what about Y, or another sort of compromise?" "I want x". This thread has been going in circles for almost 30 pages now.

    Opt-out will not fix all problems. All this will do is make more work for the staff (from user reports of poor tagging) to add tags onto submissions that artists do not tag fully. And it also pisses off artists still because they are getting tags added to their work that they may not want, even if they are relevant to the submission piece.

    Suggestions so far that may help everyone or work towards a good compromise:
    1. Tag Synonyms/Aliasing - (cat and feline are the same, etc). This would help cut down on the amount of tag variations needed on a submission and make search and blacklisting both better at the same time. This also would vastly improve blacklists for users.

    2. Tagging Policy - a fleshed out tagging policy to ensure users tag their works accurately so that blacklisting and search are both effective is a good suggestion, and could potentially cut down on a lot of meaningless/useless tags (sentences like 'this is a piece of art lol' get broken up and jumbled, make no sense, and serve no purpose in our system).

    3. Tag Distinction - Separating or somehow otherwise defining tags that a Submitter (Artist, CC, etc whatever you want to call 'em), Staff or User added to a submission piece. We already do this in a way, but it could be improved. Green tags are added by the artist and can be removed. Red tags cannot be removed (Artist set, or added by staff). White tags are ones added by users (not the submitter or staff) to a submission. (Examples: http://i.imgur.com/ZRmhn1L.png and http://i.imgur.com/IeJwBff.png )However, we could probably separate between Submitter/Staff and User added tags more, so it's more distinct and known.

    4. Anonymous Tagging - Only staff would be able to see who added a tag to a submission to prevent harassment to users who add tags to a submission, blocked users still would not be able to tag a user's works.

    5. Better Reporting/Notifications - Both of these are something we could likely use to help out both CCs and users alike. A notification that allows a CC to revert or report a tag added to their submission, as well as an option for a user to report a submission for not having correct tags (if they cannot add them themself, or the tags got removed).

    6. Approved-Only Tags - Potentially an opt-out feature that allows tags to be added, but only after the artist approves the tags. A potential issue with this however leads back to earlier, about artists not allowing relevant tags on their works, or if they don't ever check them, these tags would never be added. Fiz has a good idea about this here: https://forums.weasyl.com/vbulletin/...ll=1#post90305

    7. Tagging Blacklist - A list of certain tags that only a submitter or staff can add to submissions. Typically would be slurs or gender related tags due to the sensitivity of these.

    If I missed any suggestions, let me know and I'll it add to the list after work.

  4. #284
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    4. Anonymous Tagging - Only staff would be able to see who added a tag to a submission to prevent harassment to users who add tags to a submission, blocked users still would not be able to tag a user's works.
    already against this, so you've lost my support for anything else.

    A notification that allows a CC to revert or report a tag added to their submission, as well as an option for a user to report a submission for not having correct tags (if they cannot add them themself, or the tags got removed).
    but what is a 'correct tag' and who decides if it's correct or not. THAT is what's wrong here--you're giving too much power to decide what is correct and incorrect.

    if I take my work "tiger, herm, muscles" isn't that good enough? that's all the picture depicts. now here comes communityuser001 who says "oh, that's not correct. there needs to be more."

    now who is staff is going to agree with? I'm going to guess it's communityuser001, you'll say otherwise of course but I have my doubts and disbelief.
    Last edited by blufawx; 08-22-2015 at 03:08 PM.

  5.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #285
    [Logic is Erratic] Taw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pthnrgrrl View Post
    already against this, so you've lost my support for anything else.



    but what is a 'correct tag' and who decides if it's correct or not. THAT is what's wrong here--you're giving too much power to decide what is correct and incorrect.

    if I take my work "tiger, herm, muscles" isn't that good enough? that's all the picture depicts. now here comes communityuser001 who says "oh, that's not correct. there needs to be more."

    now who is staff is going to agree with? I'm going to guess it's communityuser001, you'll say otherwise of course but I have my doubts and disbelief.
    I never said that these suggestions would be implemented (either all of them, some of them, none of them, partially, etc). They are merely suggestions I've listed that were mentioned through the thread to collectively bring them all to the latest post, so they weren't buried.

    A correct tag is something that accurately describes the piece, that is literally all it is, nothing more, nothing less. If your submission is just a muscular, herm tiger, then yes, those tags are fine. However, if your submission also was vomiting rainbows and featured detailed gore, you'd need those tagged as well. If that user tagged it incorrectly, remove the tags, file a report if it becomes an issue. As I already mentioned, users who incorrectly tag submissions may have their permissions to do so revoked.

    Everything is taken on a case by case basis. If you missed a relevant tag that accurately describes your submission and they added it, it's a non-issue. If they add tags that aren't relevant or inaccurate, that's an issue.

  6. #286
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    If that user tagged it incorrectly, remove the tags, file a report if it becomes an issue
    but i can't do that if you allow anonymous tagging. How am I to know who tagged it?

    Which goes back to my previous post.

    But that's the crux of the problem, isn't it? any solution is going to have an impact on anyone else.

    Weykent says an opt-in/out solution won't make things better (but then doesn't say why) well, that has an impact on me.

    Community tagging, has an impact to the point that people either don't bother with or tell people that they won't accept their tags.

    So really then isn't this whole thing pointless, as I've been saying.

  7.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #287
    [Logic is Erratic] Taw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pthnrgrrl View Post
    but i can't do that if you allow anonymous tagging. How am I to know who tagged it?

    Which goes back to my previous post.
    As I mentioned in my previous post:

    4. Anonymous Tagging - Only staff would be able to see who added a tag to a submission to prevent harassment to users who add tags to a submission, blocked users still would not be able to tag a user's works.
    If you report it to us, we'll know who did it, with the current system, you can block them since you can see who did it.

    This whole thing isn't pointless, we are trying to come up with a compromise. All we are constantly hearing however is "I want X!" with no offered solutions for a compromise other than the ones I've listed in my first post in this thread. This is why we are trying to move past the solution of an opt-out and hear other alternatives to it and stop people from dragging their heels and keeping this going in circles.
    Last edited by Taw; 08-22-2015 at 03:28 PM.

  8. #288
    Senior Swanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piñardilla View Post
    Having had multiple conversations with weykent and other members of our devteam in the past, I've noticed that they have a culture of being able to ask and discuss very pointed questions to each other in a detached, dispassionate manner. It seems like something that just comes from working in tech, and I understand that if you're not used to it that it can come across as adversarial. Try not to read too much into that, though. They communicate this way because they have to question everything to find out what specific things are important and what things are not actually important so that they can reach an optimal way to implement things.
    That sort of behaviour might work very well in a work environment where all understand and accept this. It works absolutely horrible however, when engaging in discussions with random members of a large community, in a social environment. Expecting all parties of said community to “Not read into it” is kinda bad manner, especially when a member of staff appears to be incapable of not being borderline offensive or hurtful in every single one of their replies. Which over a long discussion as this makes a very poor environment for constructive discussion. I had sort of figured that this was the problem already, but boy, it does not make it all that much easier to hold back angry outbursts anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by piñardilla View Post
    Right now, you seem to be saying that you won't be happy unless you can prevent people who search for certain things to be able to find and see your art, even if you do actually draw those things (and even if that's not what you're saying, you're asking for features that can be used that way). That's something that impacts the rest of the community and makes Weasyl less useful to them, so weykent is probing your responses pretty hard because he's trying to find if there are any solutions that would satisfy you just as well without having such an impact on everyone else.
    What I am saying right now is that I want to know why weykent deem people's ability to find my art More important than my comfort. Why are my submissions, and those who watch them deemed more important than I? I want to understand what it is that is SO important about denying CC’s full control over their searchable tags, that it is worth driving them away over it.
    Let me remind you that people are already avoiding Weasyl over this as is, and removing More control from CC’s is Not going to improve it.
    If the fear is that CC’s art wont get enough exposure from the lack of proper tags, and CC then ends up leaving, the right action still isn’t to remove their control. It is to Inform them about the importance of tags on Weasyl, teach them how to better tag their stuff, and improve the search function. Not to actively drive them away.
    If CC still refuse community suggested search tags, that is ultimately Their choice, and their responsibility. Removing their power and telling them it’s for their own good is not how to go about it.
    And note I’m saying search tags here, as I understand that the block filter is important too. Heck I rely on the thing a lot. This is why I’ve tried to suggest ways in which to allow tags only for blocking. So artists still get to control what their art is searchable by.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swanda View Post
    I kinda feel like a lot of people in this thread are disregarding CC's comfort completely in the name of efficiency.

    Weasyl isn't meant to be a file sharing/storing site, it's meant to be an artist community. Meaning that a chunk of the search efficiency other sites (like e621 who don't give two shits about CC's) have, will be lost. This is just a reality of it. The whole idea of a "valid" tag needs to be redefined here.

    You might not personally understand why CC would want to miss out on those view, or why they would deem something like X unimportant, or even feel uncomfortable with X being tagged on their art. That however does Not mean that CC’s feelings are invalid, or should be disregarded.

  9. #289
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taw View Post
    This is why we are trying to move past the solution of an opt-out and here other alternatives to it and stop people from dragging their heels and keeping this going in circles.
    You can't move pass something people want. Even as I demonstrated in a previous post, a friend who loves the community tagging system sees an opt-out as the only solution.

    and it's why I've said, if I'm in violation for it then violate me, but from here on how I am telling people on any submission that if they add any tags beyond what I've added, I'm blocking them.

    I will not be budged on this.

  10.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #290
    [Logic is Erratic] Taw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pthnrgrrl View Post
    You can't move pass something people want. Even as I demonstrated in a previous post, a friend who loves the community tagging system sees an opt-out as the only solution.

    and it's why I've said, if I'm in violation for it then violate me, but from here on how I am telling people on any submission that if they add any tags beyond what I've added, I'm blocking them.

    I will not be budged on this.
    Going in circles for 30 pages isn't solving anything, which is why we are moving past the option of an opt-out completely. We are looking for alternative solutions that work for everyone instead. This one doesn't work, so we aren't going to implement it. Just because some people want it, doesn't mean we want to spend weeks discussing it, nor does it mean we are guaranteed to add it because people want it.

    People want us to change our site layout to completely copy other art sites. Just because someone wants something, doesn't mean we are bound to do it, nor does it mean it's for the good of everyone.

 

 

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