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  1.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #271
    Retired Staff piñardilla's Avatar

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    Keep in mind that the usefulness of tags for filtering things out needs to be preserved as well.

    I know of at least one prior instance of someone posting art unquestionably containing a particular fetish item, not tagging it with said fetish item, having that tag ultimately added by another user, and then removing said tag and blocking the tagger. That shouldn't happen.
         
       
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  2. #272
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piñardilla View Post
    Keep in mind that the usefulness of tags for filtering things out needs to be preserved as well.

    I know of at least one prior instance of someone posting art unquestionably containing a particular fetish item, not tagging it with said fetish item, having that tag ultimately added by another user, and then removing said tag and blocking the tagger. That shouldn't happen.
    I would have done the exact same thing as the poster.

  3. #273
    Junior arinaca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piñardilla View Post
    Keep in mind that the usefulness of tags for filtering things out needs to be preserved as well.

    I know of at least one prior instance of someone posting art unquestionably containing a particular fetish item, not tagging it with said fetish item, having that tag ultimately added by another user, and then removing said tag and blocking the tagger. That shouldn't happen.
    In cases like this then the user doing the tagging could report the image for not having a specific tag - I'd like to think this happens rarely so it's not something the moderators would have to deal with often. Maybe add a Report - Request Tag button as well then? For the occasions when someone is clearly posting Banana's that should have tagged it, a user can "flag" an image, input the tag they think it should have on it, that request goes instead straight to a moderator queue rather than the user - only to be used in the instances when a tag is rejected maybe?

  4.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #274
    The Lurking Wolfox Hendikins's Avatar

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    This post is a personal opinion piece, not official comment!

    My reading of the situation, having looked through many thousands of submissions of submissions on the site:
    * The quality of tagging by submitters is highly variable, and the amount of community tagging taking place is tiny in the grand scheme of things. The level of abuse of community tagging is not even statistically significant.
    * The limited nature of the tagging system is partially responsible for this.
    * Because tags are used to both find and block content, it's a double-edged sword. There's also edge cases where this won't align with the goals of the submitter.
    * Ultimately, community tagging should be the method of last resort before the moderators get dragged in.

    Additionally:
    * Many of our users have come from sites where tags are of limited use, and/or under complete control by the submitter.
    * Some of our users have concerns about potential for abuse of community tagging. Saying "But it's not happening" doesn't allay these concerns.
    * Removing community tagging completely (either directly, or by stealth) isn't really on the cards.
    * No matter what the solution is, at some point you're going to have to say "We have a moderation system for that". That said, keeping the impact on the moderators to a sane level is important - we can't pull more moderators out of thin air, and dumping too much additional work on them will cause other things to suffer.

    So the question is, how do we improve things so that people won't feel the need to community tag in the first place, and minimise the potential for abuse when it does happen?

    Making it easier for submitters to tag submissions well:
    #1: Related tags has got to be top of the list. No more additions of synonymous tags by other users (particularly undesirable synonyms), and fewer tags needed for many submissions.
    #2: We're going to have to write a decent tagging policy.
    #3: The idea of being able to tag a submission as "Does not contain x" has merit. There are cases where things are ambiguous or subject to interpretation, and I feel in such a situation the submitter should be able to make the call.

    Minimising abuse potential with community tagging:
    #1: I'm probably going to get grilled for this, but I support the idea of community taggers being anonymous. Reverting a valid tag edit and blocking the user simply because the submitter dislikes community tagging isn't a particularly reasonable response, and may be considered in violation of our Community Guidelines (II.B.2).
    #2: The idea of a global list of tags that can only be added by submitters could work. It would have to be kept to a minimal amount of things that are sore points, perhaps gender and known profanities/slurs.
    #3: Resurrecting ferrets as reporters/tag crusaders to take a load off the moderators could work.

    Balancing the needs of both submitters and viewers is of critical importance - after all, both submitters and viewers need each other.

  5. #275
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendikins View Post
    #1: I'm probably going to get grilled for this, but I support the idea of community taggers being anonymous. Reverting a valid tag edit and blocking the user simply because the submitter dislikes community tagging isn't a particularly reasonable response, and may be considered in violation of our Community Guidelines (II.B.2).
    Then being the person that would do this, violate me until my account can't be used because I have made it abundantly clear from this point forward that that is exactly what I will do. I have put it in any and all submissions I put up that that will be the case.

    Community tagging is NOT a good idea. I actually know one artist who on skype told me doesn't bother with Weasyl anymore because of this policy, among other reasons. The last piece he put up was in May of this year then he gave up.

    I can even point to a picture I had commissioned on FA where a person asked the artist, "two anuses? anii?" imagine that as a tag here, now imagine it was anonymous. You couldn't see my character's ass, but because she's a multifur herm who has two heads, four arms, four breasts and two members the commenter automatically assumed. now an "innocent" tagger here and go ahead and add "two_ansuses" and "two_pussies" and I can't do anything about it but delete the tag and hope they don't do it again, or get a moderator, who would probably do nothing about it anyway, involved.

    All because the tagger is anonymous.

    At least in my way, which has now in my view been threatened to be in violation of Community Guidelines, ensures that that person can't do it again.

  6. #276
    Senior Swanda's Avatar
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    I think this might just be the last I post on this thread for now, since I don't have any new ideas to add and discussing with weykent is clearly pointless anyhow.
    They have made it abundantly clear at this point that they don't give a flying fuck about artists and their comfort. The only thing that matters is what they create and other peoples ability to find it.
    "If I don't personally understand it, it's wrong and must be disregarded."
    I will just have to be content with them not getting the final say in this matter and put my trust in the Directors.

    I have one final question tho... weykent, why is it SO important for you that tags that CC have deemed unimportant remain on their art, even to the point of disabling CC's ability to removed tags by default and not only after abuse?
    Why is the ability to find CC's submission via a tag CC don't want on their art, for any one reason, So important that you would rather see CC delete the art and leave the site? This baffles me SO much?
    I literally can not fathom that you would actively drive artist's away, rather than implementing features that allow CC’s to feel safe and comfortable. Plenty of ideas have been thrown around that would allow this without making the usefulness of Community tagging less than it is now. Even suggestions that would make improvements to the system over how it works now.
    But for some reason, still, The ability to find art is more important than those who created it? What?

    Not even sure I will check back in to read the answers any time soon tho. I am super disappointed over this and I’m not sure I could take another "If I don't personally understand it, it's wrong and must be disregarded." *Waves hand uncaringly*

  7.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Swanda View Post
    I have one final question tho... weykent, why is it SO important for you that tags that CC have deemed unimportant remain on their art, even to the point of disabling CC's ability to removed tags by default and not only after abuse?
    Why is the ability to find CC's submission via a tag CC don't want on their art, for any one reason, So important that you would rather see CC delete the art and leave the site? This baffles me SO much?
    I literally can not fathom that you would actively drive artist's away, rather than implementing features that allow CC’s to feel safe and comfortable. Plenty of ideas have been thrown around that would allow this without making the usefulness of Community tagging less than it is now. Even suggestions that would make improvements to the system over how it works now.
    But for some reason, still, The ability to find art is more important than those who created it? What?
    I'm not sure how to interpret this other than that you can't think of how to answer my question. Can you just say whether it is that you think there is an answer here?

    Quote Originally Posted by weykent View Post
    It's not redefining the art, though. Is that what you feel the issue is: tags are supposed to reflect the submitter's "focus" on a piece?

    [...]

    Are you suggesting that the reason someone wouldn't want an "anus" tag is because it's not the focus of the piece? It's not clear to me why a submitter would object to someone finding a submission based on an exposed anus.

    I guess maybe it's partially another thing: maybe some submitters don't want genitalia tagged because they feel the focus of the piece isn't sexual. In that case, perhaps tags could be allowed/disallowed per rating. It would make sense to disallow e.g. "anus" in non-18+ submissions anyway. I've long thought about making ratings based on the presence or absence of certain tags.

  8. #278
    Senior Swanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swanda View Post
    "If I don't personally understand it, it's wrong and must be disregarded." *Waves hand uncaringly*
    I'm saying at this point, you don't have to understand it just to respect it. Just for the love of, why can you not respect that not everyone understand, sees or feel about this the same way that you do, and maybe you'll never understand why and that is Okay, but at least just respect it? I've said before that I honestly don't know how to somehow explain this to you if you don't get it by now.

    But, no to your question, that isn't all I meant by it, and in the end it doesn't matter.
    The CC should be allowed to removed a search tag for ANY one reason, not matter how illogical it is to You, and them doing so would be OKAY.
    This isn't hard to comprehend?

    And now instead of disregarding me and others completely, how about you answer my question?
    Why is the ability to find art is more important than those who created it?

  9.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #279
    Sentimental Machine Fiz's Avatar

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    Okay, here's an idea that while I'm still not fond of myself, might work out okay?

    This is expanding slightly on the Accept/Reject/Report per tag addition request that people thought up earlier. Let's say that system is in play, the uploader hits 'reject' on a tag that is possibly valid. A "User Rejected your tag request" message comes into your inbox with the ability to also report that rejection on the basis that they are refusing valid tags.

    This would allow staff to intervene via reports if 1. a user tries to submit abusive tags AND 2. a tag request that is valid goes rejected.

    EDIT: Expanding even further.

    Since that on it own wouldn't help being able to filter immediately or people with idle accounts, the suggested tags would immediately go into effect but they would be separated from Owner and Community tags. Call them "Tags-In-Process" for now. That'd let people be able to filter immediately and also show that these tags are not accepted, yet.

    The Tags-In-Process category on the submissions could not be viewed without having to click 'unhide/view' on them...unless the owner of the submission is idle. After a certain amount of time in the cases with idle accounts, the tags listed under 'Tags-In-Process' would no longer be semi-hidden and would show up on the submission. Again, this still shows that these tags are not-yet-accepted but are now easily viewable and able to filter out.
    Last edited by Fiz; 08-22-2015 at 07:48 AM.

  10. #280
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swanda View Post
    I'm saying at this point, you don't have to understand it just to respect it. Just for the love of, why can you not respect that not everyone understand, sees or feel about this the same way that you do, and maybe you'll never understand why and that is Okay, but at least just respect it? I've said before that I honestly don't know how to somehow explain this to you if you don't get it by now.

    But, no to your question, that isn't all I meant by it, and in the end it doesn't matter.
    The CC should be allowed to removed a search tag for ANY one reason, not matter how illogical it is to You, and them doing so would be OKAY.
    This isn't hard to comprehend?

    And now instead of disregarding me and others completely, how about you answer my question?
    Why is the ability to find art is more important than those who created it?
    he's been dodging me too. He said an opt-in system wouldn't make things any better. I'm still waiting for the why.

    - - - Updated - - -

    08:43:18 AM EDT there's a comment on a journal entry I did:

    I feel like the best solution to this, since there are some people who feel differently from you and some who feel the same way, would be some sort of opt-in system, or tag approval, where the submitter can either entirely disallow community tagging on a submission entirely, or any tags modified require the submitter's approval before showing up in the system.

    I'm not the only one who feels this way.

 

 

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