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  1.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #71
    Retired Staff piñardilla's Avatar

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    I feel that a lot of the resistance to community tagging mostly has to do with culture shock. I don't have statistics, but I think it's a safe assumption that the vast majority of our current userbase migrated here from other art sites. With coming from another site comes being accustomed to things working in certain ways, and somewhat of an expectation that those things will work the same way here, minus whatever one thing made them leave or branch out from where they first came from.

    Thing is though, Weasyl isn't intended to be just a slightly-improved clone of any existing site. Our devteam is really trying to look forwards and innovate, and Weasyl is designed from the ground up with the intention of bringing the best user experience to both artists and art consumers. They've engineered the functionality of its features with that in mind. And for some things, if we just copy what everyone else does just because it's what people are used to, it can really impede what we're trying to do.

    So, tags. They're one of those things. Many other sites give content owners complete control over tags, because tags are honestly somewhat of an afterthought at those places – they usually use categories as their primary search system instead. Content with joke tags or no tags at all attached are common, and even when tagging is taken seriously, it's rare to see more than a dozen tags attached. The usefulness of tags tends to range from okayish to worthless as a result.

    Weasyl doesn't use a category search, though, because such a system is inherently restricting to whatever predefined options are provided, and the more options that are provided, the more of an unwieldy mess it becomes. Here, aside from the front page, tags are the way consumers find art from people they're not already watching. We don't have the luxury of being able to leave tag usefulness in a lackluster state. What I foresee happening, if we allow complete opting-out of community tagging, is that when people come here from elsewhere, they have an immediate reaction of "This is different! I don't like this! I'm turning this off!" Then they batch transfer their gallery over, get a few watchers from whoever is looking at the front page at the time, and a few weeks of inactivity later say "Nobody must use this site because I can't get any watchers, I'm leaving!"

    And then there are places like *booru-like archives. While these have a lot of ethical issues with how they respect artist rights that we certainly don't want to introduce here, they quite frankly have great tagging and are a proof of concept that a community tagging search system works. A dozen tags is a low number on any given image, and to be completely honest if I don't know or can't remember who created a pic I've seen before, searching one of these places is generally what I try first. Ideally, we'd like to get a tagging system as close to that useful as possible without introducing the problems of trampling creator intent that these places have (i.e. "Tag What You See").

    So here Weasyl sits at an impasse, where we have a system where tags are metadata and the primary means of connecting your art to the people who want to see it and haven't already discovered you yet, but a community of creators that's mostly used to seeing tags as generally functionless but nonetheless something they own as part of their content. Culture shock. What we ultimately want to accomplish in this discussion is finding a solution that protects the presentation of your own work sufficiently for you be comfortable with the idea of letting go of tags as being something wholly within your domain. This is important, because right now community tagging is a feature that we currently see as being sorely underutilized and we'd actually like it to be much more commonly used than it is now.

    We already have a few ideas, but it's a careful balancing act to give creators the power to define their own content without breaking the usefulness of Weasyl as a gallery for consumers. I like the idea that came up of a time window after a tag is added for the owner to reject it. Other ideas that have came up in past staff discussions are tags that are removed by the content owner not being able to be re-added, or having a number of tags on uploads that can be pre-emptively blocked. For these ideas to work, though, reflexive rejection of all community tags has to stop. So please, what we'd really like to get out of this discussion is finding out what that would take.
         
       
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  2. #72
    Senior Swanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weykent View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Swanda View Post
    - Hidden tags would also be a huuuge help in addition to that.
    They would be tags that wouldn't display on the submission for anyone but staff and the creator.
    These tags would be ignored by the search but would get picked up by the blocking filter.
    Tags not yet approved or discarded by the artist would be seen as hidden tags by the site.
    So if the tag is added by someone who is blocking it, the submission would disappear from their view instantly, while it wouldn't show up in searches, or appear on the submission to viewers.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This has come up several times in the past, but I still think it's a bad idea. We already get a lot of support requests saying basically "why can I see my post but my friend can't?" when the issue is the choice of maximum content rating. If submissions were silently filtered out without any user-visible explanation, that's horrible UX
    I'm having a hard time seeing how this would cause additional confusion?
    Hidden tag or not that submission wouldn't appear for the one blocking it regardless, so nothing have really changed on that end. It's not like the warning you get when linked to something with a blocked tag is telling you what that it is either? It really just is "This submission is tagged with something you have blocked, continue if you want."

  3. #73
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    For these ideas to work, though, reflexive rejection of all community tags has to stop.
    that's not going to happen, I think. I own my content, I paid for it or I drew it. Why should I give Karl Marx the ability to tag it as he pleases? What makes him just as, if not more, worthy of tagging my stuff compared to me?

  4. #74
    Junior Webster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pthnrgrrl View Post
    that's not going to happen, I think. I own my content, I paid for it or I drew it. Why should I give Karl Marx the ability to tag it as he pleases? What makes him just as, if not more, worthy of tagging my stuff compared to me?
    Firstly, calling other users of the site "Karl Marx" isn't a good way to get your argument taken seriously. I also don't know why you're bring "worth" into this. This site is a community of people. Some make art. Some enjoy art others made. Some do both. If you don't want to be part of a community, I suggest making your own website with its own gallery. You can show your art exactly as you please.

    However, by allowing people to basically go "Hey, people looking for stuff, if you're looking for <x> this other picture might be up your alley", you help others to find your work, and in turn people who are interested in your art. If you're not taking commissions and don't care whether or not people are watching you, then fine. But if you're concerned people are going to be labeling your art in some way, you probably shouldn't even post it on the Internet, as heaven forbid someone might create a link to your art with words describing it that you don't like; that you have no recourse except complaining to the person and hoping they listen, if you can even find a way to contact them.

    At least with tags you can later change them if you really find they are not properly describing the art. But I'd go as far as to say that most artists don't know every single keyword right away. I see no problem with having the community help you out.

    What exact problems do you have? If it's abuse, then help us figure out ways to combat abuse. If it's people incorrectly tagging, then help us figure out ways to prevent that from happening.

    Personally, I think requiring approval for removing tags ensures that your tags at least are always there. Allowing extra tags on top of that helps everyone who wants to or doesn't want to see it, as well as helps people find you such that you can build up a great network of followers, whether in terms of commissions or sharing art you like or just people to talk with.

    How about this. An idea to prevent abuse:
    * If a person is newer to the site than some amount of time, e.g. 2 weeks, all community tags they provide must be approved.
    Or
    * If a person is new to the site, all tags must be approved until they have had at least some amount of tags approved with less than a certain amount rejected, e.g. at least 10 approved, no more than 2 rejected.
    Or
    * A person must maintain a high ratio of tags approved vs rejected to continue adding tags without approval. Tags remain until approved/rejected.

    And if a person is reported for bad tagging and are found to have abused the system, they are prevented from tagging others submissions in the future.

    Then while removals still require approval, only people who show a history of tagging things well can add tags, and those who abuse it will be prevented from tagging.

  5. #75
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    Or you can just have a checkbox that allows an artist, or a commission poster to opt-out of allowing others to tag their art.

    An opt-in policy is what should have been instituted from the beginning of this site.

    If you noticed, my weasyl doesn't have any art in it. It used to, and stories too.

    But it doesn't now. Why? The tagging system stinks, including the allowing the 'community' to tag things and Weasyl doesn't allow the much, much easier formats of .docx, .doc or .odt. Even rtf would be great. Now the only art you'll see attached to my name is when an artist that has a page here posts something.
    Last edited by blufawx; 08-18-2015 at 01:50 AM.

  6. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Webster View Post
    How about this. An idea to prevent abuse:
    * If a person is newer to the site than some amount of time, e.g. 2 weeks, all community tags they provide must be approved.
    Or
    * If a person is new to the site, all tags must be approved until they have had at least some amount of tags approved with less than a certain amount rejected, e.g. at least 10 approved, no more than 2 rejected.
    Or
    * A person must maintain a high ratio of tags approved vs rejected to continue adding tags without approval. Tags remain until approved/rejected.

    And if a person is reported for bad tagging and are found to have abused the system, they are prevented from tagging others submissions in the future.

    Then while removals still require approval, only people who show a history of tagging things well can add tags, and those who abuse it will be prevented from tagging.
    Just chiming back in to say I LIKE this idea! =D Personally this solution or something like it would satisfy what few concerns I have with the tagging system.

  7.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #77
    Quote Originally Posted by pthnrgrrl View Post
    Funny, I could have sworn I said I did have it happen to me.
    So, I looked it up, and only one of your submissions had tags added by a user who wasn't you, and its tags were modified by only one user. There were only four tags added: "furry", "hermaphrodite", "solo", and "clothes". Can you explain which of these felt like "trolling" to you?

  8.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzd View Post
    Just paving the way for abuse
    If we were going to remove features due to abuse potential, we'd have to shut down the site.

    Someone already (a while ago, now) registered a horde of user accounts to spam the front page with thumbnails abusing someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swanda View Post
    I'm having a hard time seeing how this would cause additional confusion?
    Hidden tag or not that submission wouldn't appear for the one blocking it regardless, so nothing have really changed on that end. It's not like the warning you get when linked to something with a blocked tag is telling you what that it is either? It really just is "This submission is tagged with something you have blocked, continue if you want."
    Consider gallery listings. Someone links to a user, not a submission directly, and one user can see some things and the other can't.

  9.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #79
    I've said it offhand before, but I just ran some numbers to back up my statements of "malicious tagging is extremely uncommon".

    As of right now, there are 105,621 accounts registered on Weasyl, and of those accounts, 103 of them have been permanently banned, 585 of them have added tags to submissions which weren't their own, and 3 of them have had their tagging privileges revoked. This means that about 0.1% of users who have registered an account have gone on to be permanently banned, and 0.5% of users who have tagged others' submissions have gone on to had their tagging privileges revoked. That's the same order of magnitude, even if it's marginally more common to lose tagging privileges.

    I can try to run more numbers if anyone else has questions about statistics on community tagging.

  10.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #80
    Sentimental Machine Fiz's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by weykent View Post
    I've said it offhand before, but I just ran some numbers to back up my statements of "malicious tagging is extremely uncommon".

    As of right now, there are 105,621 accounts registered on Weasyl, and of those accounts, 103 of them have been permanently banned, 585 of them have added tags to submissions which weren't their own, and 3 of them have had their tagging privileges revoked. This means that about 0.1% of users who have registered an account have gone on to be permanently banned, and 0.5% of users who have tagged others' submissions have gone on to had their tagging privileges revoked. That's the same order of magnitude, even if it's marginally more common to lose tagging privileges.

    I can try to run more numbers if anyone else has questions about statistics on community tagging.
    Generally, our users are quite well behaved. I mean it when I say this but this site is genuinely the nicest community wise that I've ever worked on, administrative wise.


    Though I actually agree with one thing that has popped up a few times in the thread. If someone adds a tag to your submission and you remove it, it shouldn't be allowed to be placed again unless the uploader does it or a staff member does it.

 

 

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