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  1. #211
    Senior Swanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bornes View Post
    You could just allow CCs to approve/disapprove all tags, and any disapproved tag might be checked by a Ferret at that point (if you wanted ferrets again)
    If ferrets were reintroduced for tagging, this would definitely be the way to go about it!
    This helps root out problems without intruding on the CC's rights for no good reason.

    I kinda feel like a lot of people in this thread are disregarding CC's comfort completely in the name of efficiency. That's not finding a compromise that both parties can be happy with, it's the same kind of stubbornness as stamping the ground saying the system should be removed completely.

    Weasyl isn't meant to be a file sharing/storing site, it's meant to be an artist community. Meaning that a chunk of the search efficiency other sites (who don't give two shits about CC's) have, will be lost. This is just a reality of it. The whole idea of a "valid" tag needs to be redefined here.

    Just because X is displayed on a submission doesn't mean that X is a valid tag by default.
    If X is visible but a minor part of the piece and the CC have decided that it is unimportant. Then X isn't a valid tag for any other reason than blocking. Yes the CC might lose out on some views if their submission doesn't show up in search under X, but ultimately CC have decided that those views would be gained for the wrong reason.
    Having a vote system in place to lock tag X onto the submission, with no way for CC to remove it, wouldn't just be invasive, it would be outright abusive. It also sends a clear message that CC's have very little importance to the community, compared to what they create and those viewing it.

    You might not personally understand why CC would want to miss out on those view, or why they would deem something like X unimportant, or even feel uncomfortable with X being tagged on their art. That however does Not mean that CC’s feelings are invalid, or should be disregarded.

    Tags are not just commentary, they are also defining, and if CC doesn't want their art defined as X for any one reason, then that should be their choice, not the viewers.

    And for those who have suggested here and other places that CC’s shouldn’t be able to touch community tags on their own submissions, let me just outline how awkward that is:
    It would give me more power over tags on Other people's submissions, than on my own.
    I would have more control over the tags on a random persons, whom I’ve never seen before, submission than over the tags on my own. That is a hella awkward situation imo.
    Last edited by Swanda; 08-21-2015 at 02:27 AM.

  2. #212
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    I'm fine, in a way, with some moderation of what is deemed an appropriate tag and inappropriate.

    I still think there needs to be an opt-out system for community tagging since it's obvious that not everyone wants or likes that. I know I'm not the only one, I'm just the most vocal.

  3.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Swanda View Post
    <snip>
    I think that this line of discussion requires consideration of which tags submitters don't want to see. I made a post about it earlier, but I didn't see anyone reply to it yet: https://forums.weasyl.com/vbulletin/...ll=1#post89870

    You can say "a submitter doesn't want their art defined as {some tag} and that should be their choice", but I want to understand why. To me, it seems that when you consider the actual specific cases (instead of handwaving which tags make submitters uncomfortable), most of the issues are easily resolvable without having to give the submitter the final say.

    Of course, I'm still definitely in favor of allowing submitters (or anyone else) to report a tag or tag suggestion or whatever.

  4. #214
    Regular Bornes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weykent View Post
    I've been trying to understand what sorts of tags it is that people don't want added, and so far it seems to be:
    • Gender tags and/or slurs (which could require extra scrutiny or only be added by submitters/staff or something else)
    • Synonyms (which would be cut down on by implementing tag implications and a standard tagging policy)
    • Inaccurate tags, i.e. tags which do not accurately describe the content (which could be solved with voting, which would benefit from engagement)
    • Words that the submitter doesn't like (which could be marked as "not shown on submission" by the submitter, but still could be used for filtering)


    Is there any unwanted class of tags not covered here? The thing I'm trying to understand overall here is how to make community tagging seem like more of a net positive to the skeptics, and make it easier to handle the cases they're concerned about.
    I think you nailed it, honestly.

    1. Someone tags an MtF as "male" or "ladyboy" or wants to remove the tag "woman." CC takes all this insultingly because to them the figure in the art is a woman, no matter the body configuration, because it is their character. Also some terms (like herm) are usually only used for porn. If this is an artistic nude, the CC may not want anyone who was interested in herm porn finding the image and jerking to it, because that would be really disgusting in their eyes, and maybe even invalidating.
    Pretty much everything related to gender right now is a minefield because the internet is used to trans characters being sex objects for porn only. Trans rights activists are changing this and the vocabulary will take time to change on the internet. Right now we have kind of a weird culture thing going on where some terms that seem ok (herm, ladyboy) are actually really offensive slurs now, even when exclusively used for porn.
    I'm not saying this because I'm against any of this (quite the opposite, actually) but because it's something I've tried to keep track of as part of that community and being online for most of my life. Even terms that were previously accepted by the trans community (transsexual, for instance) are now seen as slurs. It's hard to keep up with, and everyone has their own personal preferences, so I can 100% understand why CCs wouldn't want their stuff tagged with something they don't personally agree with, especially if the CC themselves is part of the trans community.

    There was actually some CC I was watching here that made a new word for non-binary body configurations not too long ago. It was very useful. I will see if I can find it.

    2. I think this is just because tags are publicly viewable and if you have a lot of them, it looks kinda cramped and seems unnecessary. Maybe just a button that says "show tags" would solve this.

    3 & 4. This fits into 1. But also someone made an example with micro and macro and vore. They don't want people to find their art through the vore tag because they don't draw vore, but some of the art can be misleading and seem like vore at times. The CC doesn't want to be associated with that and doesn't want to attract watchers/users who may be expecting more vore-y images in the future.

    EDIT:
    Found it!
    "Altersex"
    https://www.weasyl.com/journal/90896...o-fetish-terms
    Last edited by Bornes; 08-21-2015 at 05:18 AM.

  5. #215
    Senior Swanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weykent View Post
    I think that this line of discussion requires consideration of which tags submitters don't want to see. I made a post about it earlier, but I didn't see anyone reply to it yet: https://forums.weasyl.com/vbulletin/...ll=1#post89870

    You can say "a submitter doesn't want their art defined as {some tag} and that should be their choice", but I want to understand why. To me, it seems that when you consider the actual specific cases (instead of handwaving which tags make submitters uncomfortable), most of the issues are easily resolvable without having to give the submitter the final say.

    Of course, I'm still definitely in favor of allowing submitters (or anyone else) to report a tag or tag suggestion or whatever.
    I honestly don’t know how to explain this to you if you don’t understand by now, despite so many people trying to make it crystal clear. I guess the most boiled down to the point I can get it is that art is a personal experience.
    And quite a few artists see their art some something very personal, even if it's just a simple pin up. Having someone else barge in and actively redefining your art is super invasive at best. Even if the art was only searchable by said tag for a few hours, it can still feel very violating to some.
    At this point all I can say is that you don’t need to understand it to respect it.
    And the long and short of it is that other people's ability to find CC’s art should not outweigh CC’s comfort. If it does you will keep seeing people leave over it.

    Sometimes a CC don't want their art tagged as, let's say, “Anus” simply because they felt like adding a * as a minor non focus point detail. And that is okay.

    “Anus” isn’t a gender tag, so no help for CC to remove it there.

    It's not a Synonym either, so no help for CC to remove it there.

    It is an Accurate tag in this case, just highly unimportant. Yet a voting by the community would most likely deem it accurate and the tag would get locked onto CC’s art.
    Tough luck I guess.

    It’s not really a word CC dislike either, so it wasn’t added to a “Do not add to this submission, list. It’s just very redundant and an eyesore, and maybe they would rather not have people finding this submission through searches for “Anus” as well.

    Tough luck tho, it is now force locked onto their submission by the community.
    The only option now is to report the tag and waste staff's time with it.
    However; staff would most likely not removed it for CC, since it's not offensive nor inaccurate, and they don’t appear to care to understand CC’s feelings on the matter either.

    And quite honestly most CC’s have WAY better things to do with their life than wait on replies from staff over tag removals, that should never, ever have been locked in the first place. You know things like watching paint dry, or grass grow.

    In all seriousness if you started locking tags on submissions by default in any way, I would for the first time consider leaving. I’ve always been kinda unhappy with the community tagging, but I also recognize the value of it. I also feel it could become a Really good thing for the site in the long run and with the right improvements. Removing CC’s ability to remove tags is not one of the right ones.


    Imo, the right ones would include:

    Associated tags - There you go by adding "Housecats", you also by association added “Housecat” “Cat” “Cats” “Feline” Felines”. So many new searches you would be found by!

    Anonymous tagging - Honestly I don’t understand why it wasn’t made like that from the start.

    Tag approval by CC - With the option to turn it off.

    The option to turn off tag notifications.

    Tags disapproved by CC shouldn't be able to be requested again.

    Tags separated differently, and allowing for copy pasting a long string of tags.

    Hidden tags that would get picked up by the Block but not the search filter.
    Hiding them under a “Read hidden tags” button or something to that effect would be an oookay compromise I guess.

    Maybe an overall tag history page, where CC’s can go see recent tag changes to all their submissions in the same info stream.

    More information on Why tagging is So important on Weasyl, and what the consequences of poor and inaccurate tagging would be. Along with a guide on how to tag your art well.
    That the community tagging is a thing and why it is a thing.
    How best to get this information to users Idk. Since people hate reading. But this is just so hella important

    A community guideline on how to tag other people's submissions.
    Basically creating a tagging outline, with what the goals for the community tagging are.
    Such as - Don’t go with a tag what you see approach.
    Maybe have people read through this before they are even given the option to tag others submissions.

    And a last random though:
    Maybe allow CC’s to pick between a few options of:
    Only add block-fliter tags please.
    Tag away.
    Wreck me! (tag what you see I don’t care)
    Either on all submissions by default or per submission, and then have a visual representation of CC’s choice at the tags.
    Maybe have CC’s read through the “Why tagging is so important on Weasyl” info before allowing them the option for “Only Blocked tags”.
    Last edited by Swanda; 08-21-2015 at 06:13 AM.

  6. #216
    Regular armaina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socks the Fox View Post
    Edit: Oh please give us an easy way to tag characters! something like "socksthefox:Jade" where the colon both tells the system it's a character tag as well as separate the owner and character (i.e. maybe a person would want to search for all art involving my characters they'd search "owner:socksthefox". They wouldn't even have to be registered on the site since it's just tags.
    I'm laffin cus I LITERALLY just made that same exact suggestion in the post before yours

    WE REALLY NEED UNIQUE CREATOR DESIGNATION FORMATTING!! It'd be awesome because we would be the only site that had anything like that at all.

  7.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #217
    Sentimental Machine Fiz's Avatar

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    Okay, there's no need to delve into personal attacks here. Knock it off.


    Anyway, this is an idea I threw to staff a while ago and it seemed to be well liked enough, so I'll repeat it here.

    Being able to per-emptively reject certain tags per submission, with the amount of rejectable tags being equal to the amount of tags that the uploader places on the submission. This would mean that hopefully, people would start tagging better and would also let people auto-reject tags they already know they don't want.

    Example: You post an image and it's tagged transgender, cheetah, feline. You already know you want to auto-reject the terms "herm" and "leopard", so you put those on the auto-reject list. It would also leave you for one space for another auto-rejected tag if you think of one later on.


    The major problem I see with this one is people putting in gibberish tags just to block a lot of tags, but hopefully people would report gibberish tags to us. It'd also work well with having an approved community tag listing system that some of you described a while back (where if a certain tag is used enough, it gets automatically turned into an approved tag. helps keep from gibberish tags being used).



    I think such a system could be used in congruent with a "global tag banlist" sort of thing that I mentioned a while ago (a global tag list that holds terms that only the uploader or staff can add to a submission, which would probably include the tag 'herm' anyways but I digress), as well as a system where if you've already removed a community tag off of a submission, it can't be readded except by you or staff. All of those systems used together would basically mean:

    1. Majorly cut down the possibility of abusive tags (which is already rare to start with)
    2. Less possibility of edit wars if a tag is removed by user, meaning it's now set to auto-reject
    3. Give users power to automatically get rid of tags they know for certain they don't want

    While still allowing community tagging to be a thing.

  8. #218
    Senior Swanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiz View Post
    Being able to per-emptively reject certain tags per submission, with the amount of rejectable tags being equal to the amount of tags that the uploader places on the submission. This would mean that hopefully, people would start tagging better and would also let people auto-reject tags they already know they don't want.
    Aside from potential gibberish tags the only problem I see with this idea, is that it could be a blow to the block filtering. I don't think it'll be a huge issue, but the risk is there, so eh.
    It should not be a stand alone thing tho, this addition isn't enough in itself.

  9.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #219
    Retired Staff piñardilla's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bornes View Post
    I feel like that just adds a completely unnecessary middle step.

    You could just allow CCs to approve/disapprove all tags, and any disapproved tag might be checked by a Ferret at that point (if you wanted ferrets again)
    Also workable. It's just an idea, so the details of the process can be reworked until it fits. I felt that Ferret pre-clearance of tags might make CCs more comfortable with the idea of permitting community tagging in the first place. It could also help us enforce some standards in tagging, possibly.

    As for Swanda's point, I still personally don't get why CCs wouldn't want an accurate tag to show. But perhaps a good compromise within this proposed idea is for CCs to get an "Approve/Reject/Hide" prompt on tag notifications? The difference between Reject and Hide in this case would be that Ferrets wouldn't receive a rejection notification for Hidden tags, and they would still continue to function for blacklisting.

    There could be some awkwardness when people keep trying to add tags that are already hidden, so they might ultimately not end up being truly invisible, but require clicking through to the tag editing prompt to actually see them or something.
         
       
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  10. #220
    Senior Swanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piñardilla View Post
    is for CCs to get an "Approve/Reject/Hide" prompt on tag notifications?
    Oh I like this! This would be great for an CC approval prompt, no matter how it was implemented!

 

 

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