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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkCat View Post
    I agree, it should be wholesale.
    Baiting me won't work.
    Sega does what Nintendon't.

  2. #182
    Regular Bornes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueJaySF View Post
    And having the tagging feature as-is will lead to unfettered trolling by malicious users and their spambots?
    Except it hasn't, as proven by stats given by mods?
    Not everyone who sees the option to refuse community tagging will make use of it, the same as having the option for tagging by the community will not be used by the majority of the community, regardless of the outcome of their tagging.
    If I remember correctly, Weasyl was founded with community tagging as being one of the pillar features during its creation. It was touted as one of the things it was most proud of and what made it different from other sites. I was too late for the Kickstarter but I did pay my dues to get into the early invite. Point being here is that community tagging is one of the foundations of why this site was created in the first place, so that's why the site is centered around it (and why the search feature works the way it does).

    Because the search feature only works with tags, having no, misleading*, or very few tags actively harms the creator (no visibility), the general user (not able to search or find content, or blacklist certain things), and the community of the site.
    By having no, few, or misleading* tags, not only does this make the search feature unuseable (can't find stuff because people don't tag), it makes the blacklist feature useless (can't blacklist stuff that won't use your blacklist tags), and it fosters a culture that says "tagging isn't important."

    If Weasyl allows a content creator to opt out from community tagging, ENTIRELY, it is willfully kicking a lot of features the site has in the shins, as well as saying "it's 100% ok to not participate in the very thing that makes Weasyl Weasyl."

    But let's say that Weasyl does say you can opt out of community tagging. What could be the long-term ramifications of this (Assuming no other changes are made)?

    - A lot of CCs turn the feature off because they don't like it for whatever reason
    - A lot of submissions have no, few, or misleading* tags
    - A lot of people can't blacklist stuff they want
    - Since so many CCs have opted out, many people don't waste time trying to add tags to CCs that allow it
    - Tags get blamed for being useless
    - Search feature gets blamed for being shit
    - Blacklist gets blamed for being useless
    - People don't use Weasyl

    (Hey this sort of sounds like what's happening right now!)

    Now, Weasyl could decide to get rid of community tagging alltogether, and yeah I'd be sad but I wouldn't quit the site over it, but it seems the staff really doesn't want to, which means that community tagging is here to stay and we need to figure out a way to get it to work without everyone getting up in arms over it.

    Nowhere near so many people as are registered have used the tagging feature, and yet this site has not collapsed. Implementing the option to uniformly revoke the option should the uploader choose that path will not bring about the site's destruction.
    It will bring about inactivity and it promotes the view that tagging is unimportant.

    Tagging IS important, but because Weasyl has not promoted it that well, CCs actively discourage its use and punish users for using the feature, it has scared people off from tagging.

    If community tagging is important to the site and what Weasyl wants to continue doing, then it needs to foster an atmosphere where tagging work is encouraged, and there is no fear of being punished for accidentally adding something you thought was ok.

    In order to foster that sort of environment, Weasyl needs to work on a lot of things, many of which have been suggestions earlier in this thread (gamification, anonymous tagging, allow/disallow, unified/global tag lists, suggestions, etc.)


    *misleading tags in this sense mean something that the artist tags but the viewer may not directly see, such as "male" but there's a vagina in the picture because the male is an FtM. "Misleading" is not really the right word choice for this, as this whole thing is very much another can of worms entirely, but it does impact searches, especially for people who want to use the blacklist for certain things. The use of those types of tags from a CC without the inclusion of other types of tags may be (indirectly, unintentionally) subversive to that purpose (of the blacklist).
    Also I'd like to apologize for using the word "Misleading" here in advance. I have no idea what else to call it in this instance. I am IN NO WAY saying that an FtM is NOT male.
    Last edited by Bornes; 08-20-2015 at 07:21 PM.

  3. #183
    Simple solution:

    Make community tagging optional at the upload stage for the submitter. Let the users choose whether or not they want their stuff to be tagged by other people or not.

  4. #184
    Premium User Oly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pthnrgrrl View Post
    So just because someone doesn't like community tagging means they don't want to be a part of the community? Just because they want complete and total control over the tagging like every other allows?

    There's more to a community than just tagging than are dreamt of in your philosophies, Horatio.

    The sad part that you and they said this and it feels like there are staff actively encouraging people to leave is what's most telling. So much for 'community'. Should not a 'community' be people of differing opinions and thoughts? or should we all goosestep to the same drum, comrade?
    You seem like a decent person and you're definitely passionate from what i've seen, but really if this is such a big deal that it breaks the site for you, I mean... I don't want to tell anyone where to go or not go regardless of my personal feelings, but at that point you have to choose if you want to stay and make it work or not. Making it work might require you to compromise. I get that for some people that's something they seldom if ever do(I would not claim innocence from that myself, certainly.)

    I guess what I'm saying is that I hope you can stay and manage to help find compromise you can be happy with along with everyone else because having passionate people around helps to make a community great. But if that doesn't happen I hope you can find somewhere you can feel comfortable at, too.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Bornes View Post
    Except it hasn't, as proven by stats given by mods?
    I was not asking a question, I was issuing a rebuttal.
    Sega does what Nintendon't.

  6. #186
    Regular blufawx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkCat View Post
    Well, yes. As Bornes said it's a matter of collaboration and sharing. Having complete control just leads weasyl down the path of being a an image storage database. There can be compromise but neutering the entire feature would remove something that indeed makes Weasyl unique.
    I don't think I've ever said completely remove it.

    I've said give us an opt-in (at sign up) for community; and an opt-out for those of us already signed up.

    I mean is that so hard? really?

  7.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #187
    feline fine Noxid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmor View Post
    Simple solution:

    Make community tagging optional at the upload stage for the submitter. Let the users choose whether or not they want their stuff to be tagged by other people or not.
    tags are important for blacklisting as well as searching. By allowing disabling community tags on uploads it would become impossible for people to filter out content they don't wish to see from inadequately tagged material. So I don't think this alone can solve the problem.

  8. #188
    Senior DrunkCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueJaySF View Post
    Baiting me won't work.
    What? I agree with you. I think having an option turn community tags on/off for an upload to be feasible, it would just have to be wholesale (i.e. it disables the entire feature).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bornes View Post
    Except it hasn't, as proven by stats given by mods?

    If I remember correctly, Weasyl was founded with community tagging as being one of the pillar features during its creation. It was touted as one of the things it was most proud of and what made it different from other sites. I was too late for the Kickstarter but I did pay my dues to get into the early invite. Point being here is that community tagging is one of the foundations of why this site was created in the first place, so that's why the site is centered around it (and why the search feature works the way it does).

    Because the search feature only works with tags, having no, misleading*, or very few tags actively harms the creator (no visibility), the general user (not able to search or find content, or blacklist certain things), and the community of the site.
    By having no, few, or misleading* tags, not only does this make the search feature unuseable (can't find stuff because people don't tag), it makes the blacklist feature useless (can't blacklist stuff that won't use your blacklist tags), and it fosters a culture that says "tagging isn't important."

    If Weasyl allows a content creator to opt out from community tagging, ENTIRELY, it is willfully kicking a lot of features the site has in the shins, as well as saying "it's 100% ok to not participate in the very thing that makes Weasyl Weasyl."

    But let's say that Weasyl does say you can opt out of community tagging. What could be the long-term ramifications of this (Assuming no other changes are made)?

    - A lot of CCs turn the feature off because they don't like it for whatever reason
    - A lot of submissions have no, few, or misleading* tags
    - A lot of people can't blacklist stuff they want
    - Since so many CCs have opted out, many people don't waste time trying to add tags to CCs that allow it
    - Tags get blamed for being useless
    - Search feature gets blamed for being shit
    - Blacklist gets blamed for being useless
    - People don't use Weasyl

    (Hey this sort of sounds like what's happening right now!)

    Now, Weasyl could decide to get rid of community tagging alltogether, and yeah I'd be sad but I wouldn't quit the site over it, but it seems the staff really doesn't want to, which means that community tagging is here to stay and we need to figure out a way to get it to work without everyone getting up in arms over it.


    It will bring about inactivity and it promotes the view that tagging is unimportant.

    Tagging IS important, but because Weasyl has not promoted it that well, CCs actively discourage its use and punish users for using the feature, it has scared people off from tagging.

    If community tagging is important to the site and what Weasyl wants to continue doing, then it needs to foster an atmosphere where tagging work is encouraged, and there is no fear of being punished for accidentally adding something you thought was ok.

    In order to foster that sort of environment, Weasyl needs to work on a lot of things, many of which have been suggestions earlier in this thread (gamification, anonymous tagging, allow/disallow, unified/global tag lists, suggestions, etc.)


    *misleading tags in this sense mean something that the artist tags but the viewer may not directly see, such as "male" but there's a vagina in the picture because the male is an FtM. "Misleading" is not really the right word choice for this, as this whole thing is very much another can of worms entirely, but it does impact searches, especially for people who want to use the blacklist for certain things. The use of those types of tags from a CC without the inclusion of other types of tags may be (indirectly, unintentionally) subversive to that purpose (of the blacklist).
    Also I'd like to apologize for using the word "Misleading" here in advance. I have no idea what else to call it in this instance. I am IN NO WAY saying that an FtM is NOT male.
    You da bes.

    EDIT: Also after reading the above, and what noxid said about blacklisting, I'm rescinding my support for it being optional. Especially if it's a cornerstone feature. The blacklisting is also a good argument.
    Last edited by DrunkCat; 08-20-2015 at 07:29 PM.
    "To tell us that every species of thing is endowed with an occult specific quality by which it acts and produces manifest effects, is to tell us nothing; but to derive two or three general principles of motion from phenomena, and afterwards to tell us how the properties and actions of all corporeal things follow from those manifest principles, would be a very great step." -Issac Newton, Optics
    "You are what you do not do." - Relax

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxid View Post
    tags are important for blacklisting as well as searching. By allowing disabling community tags on uploads it would become impossible for people to filter out content they don't wish to see from inadequately tagged material. So I don't think this alone can solve the problem.
    Still something you should at least think about doing if I'm completely honest.

    Perhaps you can introduce a "report tag" option where users can flag false or inappropriate tags?

  10. #190
    Tagging being a central aspect of the site's function is not something I was aware of when I joined last year. I appreciate the eye opener on how much it's used for different things, actually, but it's like I'm learning this too late. Making it sound like it's something users just come in understanding when functionality like this isn't the case elsewhere - there's no telling how many other people don't/didn't either, and left expecting something else. If I realized how much this would impact my experience back then... I don't even know anymore.

 

 

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