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  1. #11
    Senior Rilvor's Avatar
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    It's just human social behavior. It's strange I know, but those who learn the way it works are the ones leading the dance.

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    Retired Staff piñardilla's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moogle View Post
    Gosh.. thank you so much Pina for explaining all this and not beating around the bush. Figured I was a bit naive when it came to employment related stuff but not to this extent. I'm actually not too sure what to even say about how dirty a majority of these companies are if their mindsets are like this, and regarding the questionnaire (it was online).. that's just brutal. ;x

    I'm keeping a bit of hope however after hearing about your experience with Walmart. That said though, as much as I'd love to wait for these guys to contact me back.. I guess it wouldn't be smart to bank everything on just this. But at least I know how they operate better now, and while I still don't fully agree on lying to them I'll be a bit more flexible with my answers if I run into anymore online applications.
    I'm sorry the world's not as nice a place as it ought to be. I'd hate to see a positive, honest and friendly attitude like yours give way to cynicism like mine, but unfortunately it's kind of a necessary adaptation to survive out there.

    But yes, don't bank on this application, start looking for more now. In fact, don't even do them one at a time at all. Find all the places you'd like to work and apply to all of them. If while waiting to hear back from your first choice you get a job offer from a second-tier choice, take it without hesitation. Then if your first choice comes through later with an offer, take it and quit the other job and don't feel bad about it. There's nothing wrong with leaving for a better job, it's expected behavior in actual career jobs. People will often use competing job offers as leverage for a raise, even.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moogle View Post
    It's sad to see it explained like this, although I'm wondering if it's different in other places of the world? Maybe the US works like that but Canada not so much, course that might just be wishful thinking.
    Can't say I've had experience with Canada, but I think it's a capitalism thing, not a regional thing. You can't really escape it.
         
       
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  3. #13
    feline fine Noxid's Avatar
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    as an OFFICIAL 🍁 CANADIAN, I can confirm that it's pretty much the same deal. When you apply for a megacorp like that, they don't really care who you are, they just want to cull as many applications as fast as possible. It's just too much work and the resources to do it manually are expensive.

  4. #14
    ~Kupo~ Moogle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piñardilla View Post
    But yes, don't bank on this application, start looking for more now. In fact, don't even do them one at a time at all. Find all the places you'd like to work and apply to all of them. If while waiting to hear back from your first choice you get a job offer from a second-tier choice, take it without hesitation. Then if your first choice comes through later with an offer, take it and quit the other job and don't feel bad about it. There's nothing wrong with leaving for a better job, it's expected behavior in actual career jobs. People will often use competing job offers as leverage for a raise, even.
    Such valuable info, thank you once again (& to everyone actually for your multiple viewpoints on this! ). I've even passed this knowledge onto my brother (whos in the same situation as me), he's quite happy to know this since he's more willing to bend the truth without feeling too down about it. Time to send out a butt-ton of resumes tomorrow!

  5. #15
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    I've always thought of jobs and business as an exercise in willful, controlled 'sociopathy' for lack of a better word. With regards to the politics of it, expectations of form and ceremony, that angle of it, not the actual doing work part. It's just always felt like to succeed in business, especially working a highly corporate job, you have to try and detach from giving a shit about things like other people, whatever ethics you might hold, how you want to live your life.

    Maybe it's partly just cuz I got very little patience left in me for playing along with shit like that though. It's more foreign to me than to someone who is more inclined to be happy with status quo, i suppose. I'm a perpetually discontent punk. so. :U

  6. #16
    I love how meta job interviews are!

    I mean, they make all these cookie-cutter formulas for telling people apart, but people who could possibly be filtered by the questions are all well-aware of the process and will make sure to "stay in line" during questionnaires, rendering all the spectacle rather useless.
    Except for filtering the extreme lunatics or clueless folks.

    I believe it's mostly kept as a process because questionnaires themselves became a market and Human Resources departments make enterprises believe it's a good idea, even when that isn't the case.

    Well, as Rivor said about the dancing stuff, this kind of application DOES play a role in establishing an unspoken contract: by lying to fit the desired answers, you are sending a message that you understand that those are the desired behavior norms, independently of whether you agree with (or intend to follow) them or not.

    All-in-all I find this a stupid system. If you are applying for a stupid boss (most enterprises really), go along with it, as the HR will just follow a ready-made selection process on you.
    But if you are aiming at some kind of enterprise that somehow looks differently at their employees (like I don't now, Google, Pixar for instance), you might want to be more honest, or at least not so cliché.

    There are even formulas like answering questions such as "What are your biggest flaws?" with pseudo-flaws, like "I'm too perfectionist", or "I don't stop working until I'm done", "I worry too much about my job", this is super-duper cliché and makes me want to punch a baby.

    It doesn't end here! As this system gets old, many HR crews will probably start to look at ass-kissing patterns and deem the candidates as probable liars, and when this becomes a trend, people will start to regulate their "right/wrong" ratio and a whole new metagame will sprout around "being right, but not enough to raise suspicion".

    Amusing and surreal stuff.

  7.   This is the last staff post in this thread.   #17
    Retired Staff piñardilla's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlayPossum View Post
    I love how meta job interviews are!

    I mean, they make all these cookie-cutter formulas for telling people apart, but people who could possibly be filtered by the questions are all well-aware of the process and will make sure to "stay in line" during questionnaires, rendering all the spectacle rather useless.
    Except for filtering the extreme lunatics or clueless folks.

    I believe it's mostly kept as a process because questionnaires themselves became a market and Human Resources departments make enterprises believe it's a good idea, even when that isn't the case.

    Well, as Rivor said about the dancing stuff, this kind of application DOES play a role in establishing an unspoken contract: by lying to fit the desired answers, you are sending a message that you understand that those are the desired behavior norms, independently of whether you agree with (or intend to follow) them or not.

    All-in-all I find this a stupid system. If you are applying for a stupid boss (most enterprises really), go along with it, as the HR will just follow a ready-made selection process on you.
    But if you are aiming at some kind of enterprise that somehow looks differently at their employees (like I don't now, Google, Pixar for instance), you might want to be more honest, or at least not so cliché.

    There are even formulas like answering questions such as "What are your biggest flaws?" with pseudo-flaws, like "I'm too perfectionist", or "I don't stop working until I'm done", "I worry too much about my job", this is super-duper cliché and makes me want to punch a baby.

    It doesn't end here! As this system gets old, many HR crews will probably start to look at ass-kissing patterns and deem the candidates as probable liars, and when this becomes a trend, people will start to regulate their "right/wrong" ratio and a whole new metagame will sprout around "being right, but not enough to raise suspicion".

    Amusing and surreal stuff.
    Yeah, it's kind of an arms race in bullshitting skill. I even have a few programmed "slightly too blunt" responses to establish myself as a straight shooter in an interview and get the interviewer to drop their BS filters.

    "So, why do you want to work for Foocorp?"
    "Oh, because I want money, mostly. But what brought me to apply here specifically is..."
         
       
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  8. #18
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    ...leaving out pertinent information landed me a job.

    I was worried if I'd said I got fired from my last job it would reflect on my work ethic even if I explained the incident that made such a thing happened (I'd been on that job for a year and -that- happened, they kicked another employee as well as me)

    Instead...I said I was looking for another job because I didnt have enough hours in the last, which is true, and I had left said job because of 'personal issues'.

    So after I got hired I'd worked as much as I could to keep it...still am, it's been three months thus far and Im not tolerating my own mistakes this time!

    ...as for quesstionnaires I hate those and have no idea what they accomplish. Seems like I should tell them what they want to hear, like how they ask "Does working in a group environment make you feel accomplished?" "Do you enjoy talking to customers?" "Rate how much you enjoy working with others in a team-based environment" "What would you do if...(insert obvious choice here and some bad choices). I mean, nobody wants to hear that Im quite socially inept and have to work on my traits and keep waving and smiling, so I put what they want to hear, it feels like I'd be discarded if I didnt qualify for the job.

    In the end I "Fake it until I make it", exude confidence and know you can do it more than you really can and be willing to learn it as you go once you're on. It doesn't seem like they hire people who openly admit to being clueless and unsure.
    Last edited by WolfNightV4X1; 08-21-2015 at 09:58 AM.
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  9. #19
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    don't lie, just leave out information, and if the employer wanted to know, they'll ask.

    put in stuff you want them to know, and leave stuff out you don't want them to know. but if they ask, just answer honestly, and play up your strengths. lying is a big no no.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moogle View Post
    I've had this on my mind since earlier today and am a bit ticked that I can't seem to understand which would be the better option.. so I thought I'd get your guys view on this.

    Should anyone risk lying to the company you could potentially work for just so they hear what they want to hear, or be respectfully truthful even if it means having a chance to backfire? To be clear, I don't mean lying on a resume or application, rather a little questionnaire that some companies do which claim have no "right or wrong" answer (though I'm sure it plays a role in hiring). I took one today after submitting in my resume since it's mandatory and the only way they'd consider accepting it. Honestly it's a neat idea, I'm all for them doing this especially if there's no incorrect answers.. however I can't shake the feeling that it'll determine whether I get a call back or not (given that I was quite truthful all the way through, I'm having my doubts now). To give an example, one of the questions went something like this:

    "You're a new employee who happens to walk by a senior worker arguing with a customer, what do you do?"

    It was multiple choice and only had 4 given answers, I knew which was probably the correct one but I answered what I'd personally do in that situation; continue on towards my work station and let someone else more capable handle it. I guess it's worth mentioning that I applied for overnight shifts so there'd be no customers, but that most likely won't save my butt.

    Anyone else ever run into this, or do you think it's not all that important to stress over?
    Moogle, I hate to say it's a bullshit process, but it is. So, hello from the interviewer side of this question! Also, I supervise overnight shift work. We still deal with the public. My work place has a panel of three people for interviews. A superior of mine, an employee directly involved in the work, or an employee of equal or higher stature, and myself are on that board. That means there are three competing interests in new hires, long term, short term, and objective to self-interest.

    I have successfully recommended two employees, that were hired, that have lasted for more than 3 years within our division. It's a somewhat accomplishment considering my workplace.

    To the meat and taters:

    "You're a new employee who happens to walk by a senior worker arguing with a customer, what do you do?"

    I can see why this sticks out to you because it's loaded and very telling question. This may be one of the most weighted questions you answered. Moogle, remember that you have recognized a bullshit, job specific question.

    To me question is implying:

    Heated arguments will happen.
    'Customer' implies that you will have contact with the general public.
    (This is a job specific question)

    Curiosity begs me to think: for whom did you apply to? Do you like or can handle the above Moogle? These questions are important because I'll tell you why I'd pass on your application if you applied in my area with your answer.

    "but I answered what I'd personally do in that situation; continue on towards my work station and let someone else more capable handle it."

    Moogle, this is an honest and acceptable answer. Not for the position you're applying for. Here's the questions I can't ask in an interview because they could be construed to demonstrate leading and favoritism:

    "Why wouldn't you listen in and see if you can help?"
    "Don't you think by involving yourself in tense conversations, you can learn from senior employees on how to pacify a tense situation?"
    "Why aren't you giving your colleague some back up?"
    "WHY DIDN'T YOU NOTIFY A SUPERVISOR!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?? !!??!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?1/!?!?!??!?!?!!?!?!?!?!??!!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!! ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? ?!!?!??!!?!?!??!?!!??!!?!??!!??!1/?!?!!??!?!?!!?!??!!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!!?!??!?! ?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??"

    Know what these (in my mind) questions are, without real meditation, implying?

    This candidate isn't a team player.
    This candidate isn't willing to engage in challenging situations.
    This candidate defers responsibility.
    This candidate may not notify management as necessary.

    It took me mere moments to start thinking this line of reasoning. Moogle, these are four negative assumptions from my position as supervisor over this type of work. Moogle, at this point I may or may not ask:

    "So what about this position caught your interest?"

    You will probably answer something related to finances. From experience, I know that you will burn out early, even if the money is worth it. You can't do this job on your own. For me, your score will be low.

    Welcome to interviewing and stupid HR question politics.

    tl;dr:
    Moogle. You are being honest in your answers to questions, therefore, be honest with yourself, is this really the kind of job you want to work in? Your answer implies that you are not, HR questions are designed to sniff that out so that the interviewer(s) don't have to deal with that. However!!!! If you really want to work that job, you can choose an exaggerated role in the multiple choice questionnaire because you are willing to do that kind of work! Interviewers aren't all stupid, many can sniff lies out, but the passion and willingness to do work your not accustomed to, that can sensed and help pull you through.
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