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  1. #21
    Senior Gamedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank LeRenard View Post
    As evidenced by this thread now...

    I guess what's intriguing to me is that when we decided to change the language after receiving numerous very vocal complaints, it appears now to be the case that most of the new complaints are coming about not because of the actual changes made, but because we decided to take vocal complaints into account in the first place.
    Not exactly.
    It's that the change was catered to people who were getting upset over the terms that were implying tits only belong on cis females (UNDERSTANDABLE), despite those people who were complaining were the ones confusing gender with sex, while lecturing people on gender vs sex.
    Y'all were called transphobic not because of the original definition, but because someone claimed that when referring to "female breasts" in regards to the law, you were being transphobic because you were referring to the biological female sex.
    Apparently saying "biologically female" is transphobic because "you are implying that sex is absolute and can only be changed with a sex change". (Uhhh yes??????)
    The definition about defined breasts was suitable IMO and I couldn't see how it could have been taken as transphobic whatsoever because it was speaking purely from a biological standpoint.

    The rules were bent because someone confused gender with sex and labeled y'all transphobic because of it. That's the issue I personally have with it. If someone can cry "-phobia!" and have you guys try and walk on eggshells trying to figure out how to not upset someone, how are the rules ever supposed to be clear-cut on these issues?

  2.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #22
    Retired Staff Frank LeRenard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamedog View Post
    That's the issue I personally have with it. If someone can cry "-phobia!" and have you guys try and walk on eggshells trying to figure out how to not upset someone, how are the rules ever supposed to be clear-cut on these issues?
    I'm not going to address the point made about gender versus sex, because this isn't the thread for that. Plus that's a quagmire I really don't want to step into at this point.

    As for the quoted text, this kind of statement is where I got the idea that the problem was more with the fact that action was taken, rather than with the action that was taken (excuse the confusing grammar). So, please excuse me, I feel like I already addressed this point in my previous post. If this is just a case of 'agree to disagree', so be it, I suppose.

  3. #23
    Premium User QT Melon's Avatar


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    I just find it more confusing and headache inducing to be honest. I don't want to read a contract that has a bunch of astercks. It's bad enough to see every so often artists getting scared of TOS agreements only to have another one look just as migraine inducing because of something that had no business being in there in the first place.

    It's fairly obvious it was about sex not gender. I feel for people with gender identity, but this exercise in trying to be overly political doesn't make things more comfortable having to read and go through as an artist who just wants to submit work.

  4. #24
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    I quite honestly think the change of language made the rule quite simpler to understand?
    Also, It's not in Any way more text than before, so I think QT Melon is hitting way off target with the "people will get scared away."
    As nothing is more scary than a ton of unnecessary text. Such as the Apology previously found under the discussed rule.
    And that is what I REALLY think the "Oh noo don't bend to the SJW's!" people should take note to.
    The wording was so troubling before, that even those who wrote it felt like they needed to apologize for it.
    People screaming Transphobia wrongly or not doesn't change the underlying problem; the rules should Never. Ever. have to apologize for themselves in such manner.

  5. #25
    Premium User QT Melon's Avatar


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    This is a general art site, so the more it becomes political the more it seems cornered into catering for specific types of people. I already did my best to encourage more artists of different types to come here but the more things like this happen the more they tel me it's really catered towards furry or agendas so.. :/

    I guess I'm off base then...

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swanda View Post
    As nothing is more scary than a ton of unnecessary text. Such as the Apology previously found under the discussed rule.
    And that is what I REALLY think the "Oh noo don't bend to the SJW's!" people should take note to.
    I can only speak for myself, but I don't really think that's what the issue we had with it was. I personally agree with you that the disclaimer beforehand could be upsetting to trans, but I personally had an issue with what really kicked the change into gear.
    Was the change needed? Yes
    Was the disclaimer text upsetting? Yes
    That is not what I meant by SJW, what I meant by SJW is that the Weasyl staff were literally being called transphobic because one person confused sex with gender. If all you have to do to get a rule changed (for better or for worse) is to call someone a transphobe without even being correct in what you're saying to back up this accusation, there's an issue TBH.

  7. #27
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    yes once a word ending in "-phobe" is invoked the only appropriate course of action is to refuse to address the problem any further out of spite
         
       
    Now,
              let's go play, together...
       
    Together under the
                     clearest of
    blue skies.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by QT Melon View Post
    This is a general art site, so the more it becomes political the more it seems cornered into catering for specific types of people. I already did my best to encourage more artists of different types to come here but the more things like this happen the more they tel me it's really catered towards furry or agendas so.. :/

    I guess I'm off base then...
    It's probably because furry websites have to lay down clear rules when it comes to ratings. We don't want any confusion when it comes to our porn, now do we? kekekekekeke

  9. #29
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    Hello everyone,

    at first, thanks for defining the rules a little bit better.
    Also I'm pretty surprised how fast the guidelines were changed again after the gender topic was critizised here.

    I still have an issue and I really hope I'm not insulting anyone by writing about it. That's not the purpose of my post, I asure you! I'm neither really used to the English language nor the details in the behaviour... ^^; If I use some overdoing language I really only do this to clarify my point, not to abuse anyone.

    The guidelines leave me with some questions, especially on the violence topic. I mean, it's very obvious I shouldn't upload two werewolves ripping a sheep apart with the "general" rating. I'm more concearned about seeing pictures I for myself wouldn't call "moderate" or "mature" because of different opinions of violence due to another heritage.
    I'm living in Germany while this page is hosted in USA and I know "we" have in general very different opinions about violence and sexual content. It's more or less common knowledge (or common cliché knowledge) over here that many US Americans are really concerned about showing stuff which could be misinterpreted as sexual content while throwing around litres of blood and guts is more or less ok. And as far as I know this also shows in the laws which built the basic for the Weasyl guidelines as far as I understood.
    In Germany it's the completely opposite mentality. Boobs in the prime time? A little bit sketchy but ok. Bikini adverts where you have to search for the Bikini with a magnifier? Who cares. But OMG blood! Put a censor bar over that bleeding nose! (Ok, not that harsh but with the crazy censoring of video games you sometimes really have that feeling. And yes, we do have the very same violent pictures from wars in television like you... m) ) I'm not so sure what excatly which law says abouts what but the mentality is completely swap around to what I know from your country.

    So if I read the guidelines I know how I would "read" them, but I'm really unsure if that's what supposed to mean (and hence which rating I should use in future.) It really took me a while to even think of some kind of violence which could be considered as "General" at all. Could you please be so kind to give me a few examples to the guidelines of "general" and "moderate"? Not necessarily with pictures, phrases like "nosebleeding", "punch-up in the bar with blood", "throwing livers and kidneys around" will also do it. How do you define these ratings?

    Thanks for reading and again a huge sorry if I accidently assulted anyone here.
    Last edited by SiranaJHelena; 06-19-2014 at 03:49 AM.

  10.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #30
    Retired Staff Frank LeRenard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamedog View Post
    If all you have to do to get a rule changed (for better or for worse) is to call someone a transphobe without even being correct in what you're saying to back up this accusation, there's an issue TBH.
    No, that's not all you have to do to get a rule changed.
    However, if you do call us out, and if it sounds like you're doing so out of genuine concern or offense, we will take the time to listen. Just, you know... in the future, folks, try to be a little more polite about it and don't just assume we're mean-spirited bigots.


    Quote Originally Posted by SiranaJHelena
    Could you please be so kind to give me a few examples to the guidelines of "general" and "moderate"?
    Sure thing!
    General-rated violence is the kind of thing you might see in cartoon shows (e.g. the Looney Tunes, Tom and Jerry, etc.). So that would include characters punching or hitting each other but not leaving behind realistic looking bruises or blood (unless it's in very small amounts; a line of red indicating a small cut, for example), or things like bloodless removal of limbs (something like this), and so on.

    Once you start adding in realism, it should at least be Moderate. So a character punching another in the face with a spray of blood out the nose would be Moderate, someone depicted with a cut-up, horribly bruised face would be Moderate, and so would a character getting stabbed if you see blood or a real-looking wound. Lots of artists also do a sort of horror-fantasy theme wherein they draw characters missing parts of their bodies or that have bones and organs visible; depending on how gruesome it is (and that's something we just have to judge), those kinds of things could also go under Moderate. So, certain kinds of zombies might go under Moderate, for example, as long as it's not, say, The Walking Dead quality.

    Once you start getting into things like realistic disembowelment, realistic severing of limbs, copious amounts of blood pouring out of wounds or mouths or eyes, torture, etc., that all starts to go under Mature or Explicit. So, that scene from the original Robocop where the ED-209 robot riddles that guy with bullets in the conference room: that would go under at least Mature. Any kind of sexual or sexualized violence needs to be Explicit, as usual.


    Does this help at all? I'm hoping just to give you a general sense of where we draw the line in each case, so let me know if I can clarify anything else for you.

 

 

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