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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by avan View Post
    Yeah... I'm only more confused at this point, especially since what I think you're getting at applied to both images, not a case of one but not the other.

    Also, at least from what I'm getting from your description, it seems biased against individuals with particular morphologies, since when rendered clothesless for the same non-sexualized level of detail they end up not being able to be classed as general and must be classed as moderate, and thus cannot be viewed by non-logged in users.
    It basically applies to cis women, transwomen, and pre-op transmen is how I understand it.

    Like I said, I think there is really no way to explain what "defined, curvaceous breasts" means without talking about babies, getting into what some people might call transphobic, or saying "case by case basis".

  2. #62
    Hang on. I thought the objections that people were bringing up were to the rules themselves, not the wording of them. As in, the notion of making a distinction between male and female breasts is inherently not only transphobic but sexist as well.

    I mean, we're looking for ways to separate ourselves from other similar sites; why not relocate the servers to Europe, reclassify the pieces that are rated Mature for nudity to Moderate, and add a warning that in certain countries that will not be named, certain Moderate-rated pieces may be considered not-safe-for-work? That would get people to take notice, and earn us a lot of brownie points with people who are sick of the puritanical rules on sites like deviantART. It might be the way to appeal to non-furries that we've been looking for.

  3.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
    Hang on. I thought the objections that people were bringing up were to the rules themselves, not the wording of them. As in, the notion of making a distinction between male and female breasts is inherently not only transphobic but sexist as well.

    I mean, we're looking for ways to separate ourselves from other similar sites; why not relocate the servers to Europe, reclassify the pieces that are rated Mature for nudity to Moderate, and add a warning that in certain countries that will not be named, certain Moderate-rated pieces may be considered not-safe-for-work? That would get people to take notice, and earn us a lot of brownie points with people who are sick of the puritanical rules on sites like deviantART. It might be the way to appeal to non-furries that we've been looking for.
    Well there was the camp that dislikes the rule itself and another that disliked the wording, and the camps may have overlapped a bit.

    For the second we changed the wording, problem there seems to be solved.

    For problem one, it's the laws themselves that have us tied here for the US. The thing is, "move to europe" isn't a feasible option atm, much like it's not a good way to deal with disagreeing with traffic laws. There's several reasons for this.

    1. The logistics would be a nightmare. It's more expensive and less reliable than we have now. But even if we were to work out server we could afford that are reliable most of the time, fixing problems when they do arrive (nothing is perfect) our tech team is on this side of the ocean and would need to coordinate what is the problem and how to fix it.

    2. The majority of our staff are American. We're happy to have our international staff, we want to see a lot of diversity in our staff, but we're still a largely American group. We know the American laws, we have a network of resources that are American, and most importantly our legal consultant is an American lawyer.
    It would be insane to attempt to teach a lot of our staff the rules for another country without the benefit of the resources we've built up over our own careers.

    3. It's a give a take. For every rule you get around with one country, you get additional ones. Some countries in Europe will be more lenient on the breast nudity (not all mind you) but a lot of artwork would be at risk for bestiality laws (and not necessarily just feral artwork) or couldn't have artwork featuring Nazis.
    European countries have just as many fiddly laws. It is not a magic land of freedom unfortunately.
    Unless we went for countries that are reeeeeally lax for laws...and then you have infrastructure problems from part 1.

    Basically "Move to Europe" to answer this is like saying "move to europe" over traffic laws. It's a huuuge investment for no pay off.

  4. #64
    Regular avan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
    Hang on. I thought the objections that people were bringing up were to the rules themselves, not the wording of them. As in, the notion of making a distinction between male and female breasts is inherently not only transphobic but sexist as well.
    That was my objection [dealing with curvature/shape] (Though I was specifically objecting to the specific interpretation of the rules as I understood them from a user - I'm not even sure if that's how the rules were meant to be interpreted)

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by avan View Post
    (I'm not even sure if that's how the rules were meant to be interpreted)
    Neither am I, I was just explaining it as how I think it's set to be. Sorry for confusion :(

  6. #66
    I was a little concerned at first that a good chunk of what I do was going to end up blocked from non-registered viewers, but it practice, if there's any kind of negative impact, I can't see it. In any case, I respect what the mods are trying to do with the Moderate rating.

    The fact is, at this point in time, male and female torsos are regarded differently, and there's a army of artists dedicated to exploring those differences. It's ridiculous to try and pretend that we don't, and it has nothing to do with regarding one gender of greater worth than there other.

    And I'm still trying to figure out how this is any kind of slight against the transgendered.

  7. #67
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    I don't like the fact that just because of one's morphology, and that alone (everything else being the same, rendering style, pose, context, intent, etc), suddenly makes it worthy of a rating change (again, going with this interpretation of the rule, if its not the correct interpretation, this post can be ignored, but the rule should be clarified at least). That's just terrible in my opinion.

  8.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by avan View Post
    I don't like the fact that just because of one's morphology, and that alone (everything else being the same, rendering style, pose, context, intent, etc), suddenly makes it worthy of a rating change (again, going with this interpretation of the rule, if its not the correct interpretation, this post can be ignored, but the rule should be clarified at least). That's just terrible in my opinion.
    The issue is U.S. Laws say we can not allow minors to access "obscene" material. U.S. Law also indicates that bare female breasts with nipples are unacceptable for minors, but male nipples and any fat in that area is fine.

    Obscenity laws in the U.S. are annoying and the line is pretty much "I know it when I see it" meaning if you want to play at the line you need to be prepared to go to court. This has happened in the past with many classical works of art, and a judge ruled if it was obscene or not, we can't afford to do that so we need to follow the letter of the law, and because transgender morphologies are not well recognized in the law, those that have mammaries or surgery to replicate mammaries need to be inaccessible to minors on this site so we do not end up in court.

    All this being the case the staff had the choice where every nipple and bare chest=mature, or bite the policy bullet and have the majority of items in general or moderate and mammaries are mature content.

  9. #69
    If I understand the rule correctly, a covered yet prominent female breast will still get a Moderate rating, so if you were to try and apply things equally, then any depiction of any figure of any sort would be inaccessible to anyone under 13, which strikes me as a step backwards.

    As for trans-gender issues, maybe I've missed something along the way, but I thought you just addressed the transgendered by the gender they identify with. Female appearance = female and male appearance = male. At least, that's been my experience with the few transgendered I've dealt with.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbartrop View Post
    If I understand the rule correctly, a covered yet prominent female breast will still get a Moderate rating, so if you were to try and apply things equally, then any depiction of any figure of any sort would be inaccessible to anyone under 13, which strikes me as a step backwards.

    As for trans-gender issues, maybe I've missed something along the way, but I thought you just addressed the transgendered by the gender they identify with. Female appearance = female and male appearance = male. At least, that's been my experience with the few transgendered I've dealt with.
    No, it's only for nudity. You can't have defined breasts or biologically female breasts exposed. Nudity (any) is not allowed in General. If your drawing has biologically female breasts with nipples, it's not even allowed in moderate, and has to go into mature. This includes nipples showing through a shirt.

    The issue with the perceived transphobia was due to users stating that tits aren't exclusively a "female" thing. A FtM trans man with breasts can still be considered male, and the presence of tits doesn't make him a female.
    However, because Weasyl operates on US law and US law doesn't take trans people into consideration when discussing things like female nudity, it was called transphobic.
    Last edited by Gamedog; 06-23-2014 at 04:48 AM.

 

 

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