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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by LackLuster View Post
    That's not likely because the difficulty is the main core mechanic of the game. The team's refused to allow you to be able to coop with friends faster so I don't think they plan on changing anything else. In all honesty the game's areas are not that large and the entire game isn't that big at all, if the game was made more easier you could probably finish it in less than 4-6 hours, it's that short. The game is made lengthier through repetitious gameplay - getting the sequence right and understanding more about the game's mechanics.
    Isn't it widely considered bad game design to pad a game with repetition? I'd much rather have a short game that introduces new things to me than a game that pretends to be long by frustrating me.

    Quote Originally Posted by LackLuster View Post
    I'm not exactly a fan of the blog post; it's poorly written and doesn't seem to be strongly conveying its point. Granted I can agree on all the things mentioned about Super Meat boy but their definition of fun is pretty narrow-minded; not all games are designed so that they hold your hand and help you progress, most that exist test your thinking abilities and your skills (reaction time) etc. Your reward for doing good is obviously progression. I find it pretty odd how they mention Mario as being an easy game when the NES titles were a notorious representation of a game where you often needed repetition and memorization during the later stages of the game.
    I don't think this person wants all games to "hold their hand" through them, and I am not sure how you intended to use that phrase but it sounded like an insult. They are questioning how a game that is advertised to be frustrating can be viable.
    Last edited by Kazekai; 09-15-2012 at 01:55 AM.
    If you say "plz" because it's shorter than "please," I'll say "no" because it's shorter than "yes."

  2. #22
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    That's the beauty of it: different gamers have different tastes. Personally I find repetition to be fine as long as it isn't requiring you to do 40+ minutes of trials everytime you die. You lose, you learn, you get better, you overcome. That's how gaming has been for years now and it's a good formula. If your idea of repetitive gameplay is IWBTG, then you're looking at a game made to be frustratingly hard to troll gamers into thinking they have to beat it to be good at gaming in general (spoilers: you don't).

    As for what I'm playing I put Mystical Ninja down for a bit since I've found myself working back into Ys Origin playing as Hugo. It's certainly an interesting way of playing an Ys game, though it reminds me of using the archers or mages in Ys Seven, so I guess it isn't too foreign X3.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Mattie Rayner View Post
    That's the beauty of it: different gamers have different tastes. Personally I find repetition to be fine as long as it isn't requiring you to do 40+ minutes of trials everytime you die. You lose, you learn, you get better, you overcome. That's how gaming has been for years now and it's a good formula. If your idea of repetitive gameplay is IWBTG, then you're looking at a game made to be frustratingly hard to troll gamers into thinking they have to beat it to be good at gaming in general (spoilers: you don't).
    Actually, that game was made to troll the people who think super-hard games are what "true" gamers can beat - basically the hardcore gamers who are extremely narrow-minded in what video games can offer beyond a simple challenge. They have evolved past a sport, a thing people do to test skill, they offer much more now, but some people think they shouldn't.

    A good formula for video games is one that every game uses - not all games use the formula you mentioned, but all games are interactive. Offering a challenge is only a part of a balanced formula, I'll use Binding of Isaac as an example. The entire thing that makes the game hard is the lack of a save feature. The rooms might be randomized each time but they are done in such a basic and uninteresting way that it still feels like you're playing the exact same game again with the same bosses, and maybe your setback was due to the simple fact that adults with lives have to turn off a video game to do other, more productive things - I view this as a video game penalizing me for not playing it all the way through in one sitting which is something I never do anymore, even with short games.

    The reason I bring it up, though is because there are some people who believe only a true gamer would sit through a game like that from beginning to end, even if it is short. Those people are ignoring the bigger picture - a large majority of people do not have that luxury, the innovation of saving your game was probably the most important. Some people might look at it as making dying less of a penalty, but compared to the accessibility it adds to video games, for people who would not commit several hours to sitting and playing frustrating games, that is an extremely petty defense.

    What I'd like to play again, and do a playthrough of, would be this game: http://store.steampowered.com/app/207690/ This is one of my favorite genres of video game.
    Last edited by Kazekai; 09-15-2012 at 02:51 PM.
    If you say "plz" because it's shorter than "please," I'll say "no" because it's shorter than "yes."

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazekai View Post
    Actually, that game was made to troll the people who think super-hard games are what "true" gamers can beat - basically the hardcore gamers who are extremely narrow-minded in what video games can offer beyond a simple challenge. They have evolved past a sport, a thing people do to test skill, they offer much more now, but some people think they shouldn't.

    A good formula for video games is one that every game uses - not all games use the formula you mentioned, but all games are interactive. Offering a challenge is only a part of a balanced formula, I'll use Binding of Isaac as an example. The entire thing that makes the game hard is the lack of a save feature. The rooms might be randomized each time but they are done in such a basic and uninteresting way that it still feels like you're playing the exact same game again with the same bosses, and maybe your setback was due to the simple fact that adults with lives have to turn off a video game to do other, more productive things - I view this as a video game penalizing me for not playing it all the way through in one sitting which is something I never do anymore, even with short games.

    The reason I bring it up, though is because there are some people who believe only a true gamer would sit through a game like that from beginning to end, even if it is short. Those people are ignoring the bigger picture - a large majority of people do not have that luxury, the innovation of saving your game was probably the most important. Some people might look at it as making dying less of a penalty, but compared to the accessibility it adds to video games, for people who would not commit several hours to sitting and playing frustrating games, that is an extremely petty defense.

    What I'd like to play again, and do a playthrough of, would be this game: http://store.steampowered.com/app/207690/ This is one of my favorite genres of video game.
    You're right on the fact gamers don't have to sit through a hard game to be a gamer, but really a gamer is just someone who enjoys videogames to begin with. However, saying the more challenging games are badly formulated is more opinion than fact.

    Honestly I love the Binding of Isaac because it's short yet really challenging. Not every run will be the same, even if you do fight similar bosses and go through similar levels. Yeah most of it is luck based, but pulling off a winning run from a poor starting hand is one very satisfying feeling. Saving in a game of this calibre would be removing the tension of being able to pull off the challenge, making the player look at things a little more conservatively rather than running and gunning. Of course the game isn't for everyone just like Nethack, Rogue, and Dungeons of Dredmor aren't for everyone.

    I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this, but games with challenge are still definitely touted as fun, and people will want to play them. Others will disagree and despise them, but that's fine too since we're all gamers just because we play games. There isn't a science to what is best or what's the most balanced as taste varies from person to person. There will be games out there inaccessible to a person's sense of taste, but there will always be games that are accessible.

  5. #25
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    Um... Smurfs Village on my phone

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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Mattie Rayner View Post
    You're right on the fact gamers don't have to sit through a hard game to be a gamer, but really a gamer is just someone who enjoys videogames to begin with. However, saying the more challenging games are badly formulated is more opinion than fact.

    Honestly I love the Binding of Isaac because it's short yet really challenging. Not every run will be the same, even if you do fight similar bosses and go through similar levels. Yeah most of it is luck based, but pulling off a winning run from a poor starting hand is one very satisfying feeling. Saving in a game of this calibre would be removing the tension of being able to pull off the challenge, making the player look at things a little more conservatively rather than running and gunning. Of course the game isn't for everyone just like Nethack, Rogue, and Dungeons of Dredmor aren't for everyone.

    I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this, but games with challenge are still definitely touted as fun, and people will want to play them. Others will disagree and despise them, but that's fine too since we're all gamers just because we play games. There isn't a science to what is best or what's the most balanced as taste varies from person to person. There will be games out there inaccessible to a person's sense of taste, but there will always be games that are accessible.
    I can agree with most of this. I didn't mean to imply that hard games are badly formulated - just that some games in general are badly formulated and there always seems to be an excuse, such as "It makes the game harder" which was why I used Isaac as an example. I guess I can see the appeal for some people, but what I am thinking of is less a matter of taste and more a matter of limit. I suppose one benefit of indie games is that they can get away with appealing to a very niche crowd without worrying about accessibility though. I mean, look at the game I linked. I doubt even a 50th of total gamers would find that appealing. :V

    To be fair, some easy games can be formulated badly as well, Samorost 2 is not hard, but relies on a password system which I find ridiculous in modern gaming - if there was ever anything I was glad to see truly die in the gaming industry, it was passwords. When I play older games, I shamelessly circumvent them with savestates.
    If you say "plz" because it's shorter than "please," I'll say "no" because it's shorter than "yes."

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazekai View Post
    I can agree with most of this. I didn't mean to imply that hard games are badly formulated - just that some games in general are badly formulated and there always seems to be an excuse, such as "It makes the game harder" which was why I used Isaac as an example. I guess I can see the appeal for some people, but what I am thinking of is less a matter of taste and more a matter of limit. I suppose one benefit of indie games is that they can get away with appealing to a very niche crowd without worrying about accessibility though. I mean, look at the game I linked. I doubt even a 50th of total gamers would find that appealing. :V

    To be fair, some easy games can be formulated badly as well, Samorost 2 is not hard, but relies on a password system which I find ridiculous in modern gaming - if there was ever anything I was glad to see truly die in the gaming industry, it was passwords. When I play older games, I shamelessly circumvent them with savestates.
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by limit, but I assume it refers back to accessibility of games. In truth there will always be a game out there people just don't get, or games just outside of a gamer's skill range. Just because these games reach out to a more skilled set of gamers doesn't make it a bad game, just one more demanding of the player. Not every player will enjoy that, nor should they be expected to, but just as the gamers aren't expected to enjoy it they shouldn't expect the game to cater to them either. I mean no disrespect, but that's simply how I see it.

    If I may be so bold, it simply seems like games of a challenging nature aren't your cup of tea, and that's perfectly fine since they aren't for everyone, but expecting gaming as a whole to ramp down the challenge is a rather arrogant way of looking at things. If you're more into artsy games, then by all means enjoy them. Nobody will think less of you for it, and nobody should in the first place. Others however aren't, and prefer a challenge. Thus games will be made for them too.
    ------------
    Anyhow, to remain on topic, I've decided to bench Mystical Ninja GB because I find myself getting back into Ys Origin. Still have to beat it as Fact and Claw, so I may as well start now!

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazekai View Post
    Isn't it widely considered bad game design to pad a game with repetition? I'd much rather have a short game that introduces new things to me than a game that pretends to be long by frustrating me.
    Not necessarily. It depends on that type of repetition being used, in most cases padding a game adds an enjoyment factor as it gives the player more opportunity to test their skills and learn more about the game, as Mattie mentioned.

    There's a neat little Gamasutra article based on the idea of repetition in games not necessarily being bad, but you'll find most gamers do agree that what they do has to amount to something, whether it's assisting them against the challenge or making them better at the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazekai View Post
    I don't think this person wants all games to "hold their hand" through them, and I am not sure how you intended to use that phrase but it sounded like an insult. They are questioning how a game that is advertised to be frustrating can be viable.
    Granted, I stupidly dumbed down what I meant into three words and a few sentences. I didn't intend what I meant to be seen like it was an insult, but I was calling it what it was:

    The problem I had was through the implication made by the author at the beginning of the blog that a game that clearly markets itself as challenge to gamers should be made more accessible to other gamers with its challenge removed/toned down - because it looks like the Eldar Scrolls/Witcher games, and that experience of Dark Souls should be similar. Deliberately ignoring that Dark Souls isn't trying to sell itself as another game just set in a fantasy/medieval genre, its selling its challenge as the experience. If you tone down the challenge, the experience has less of an impact. Dark Souls on its own doesn't offer any other real enjoyable experience than what is greater than its own challenge; the game doesn't involve the player heavily in the story, there's just enough to keep the flow of the game. There are no quests. There's nothing all too great about the world's inhabitants and half of which are not explained. The world is not open ended and levels are semi-linear with a heavy amount of corridors and straight paths. There's virtually nothing that Dark Souls offers other than fighting against enemies and progressing to the next area.

    In addition the blog author over-exaggurates the difficulty of the game and starts comparing it to legitimately unfair difficulty modes like NightMare mode on Doom and IWTBTG, that's a pretty outrageous over-reaction. I don't necessarily believe it's impossible not to do this at some stage, DS is difficult, but it's not entirely unfair, the game is beatable and you don't have to be the guy who's a pro at the sniper on COD to accomplish that. There have been moments when I started playing and died numerous times against the first boss in a fair 1vs1 fight, until I noticed that wasn't working. Instead I discovered I could do something with a tower near me that I learned from the tutorial of the game. You can try to fight fair and honourable but in most cases it just doesn't work out for you because the game's not designed to take you on as you want it to, the more you play the more you learn that taking advantage of the environment and AI becomes a crucial and accepted part of the gameplay.

    The point of what I'm just trying to say is that it's all self-defeating. If you ask to take the challenge out of a game that deliberately markets itself as a challenge, you're trying to appeal yourself to a game that just simply isn't designed for you. And that's fine if you've ever said a game's not for you because of 'x'. Regarding the comment I posted, it was loosely referring to systems like the "Super Guide" featured in DKCR that exists for inexperienced players. In my own opinion I don't mind that it exists for inexperienced players, but when you have something that can potentially take the challenge out of a game that offers a platforming challenge? What do you have?

    -----
    There are too many games coming out next week, I forgot about Torchlight 2. I haven't even finished the first one yet, looks like I've got a lot to get through before that gets released.

    Edit: Oh god I wrote a book again.
    Last edited by ThisIsLackLuster; 09-16-2012 at 07:05 AM.

  9. #29
    Both posts are things I can appreciate and agree with. No, I don't mean to sound like every game should appeal to every gamer, I know that's impossible, and I am a person who has always had very niche tastes (My favorite genre, 3D collect-a-thon adventure games, had a very short life and are viewed as highly unpopular and badly-designed now) but I was trying to defend the author a little, if only because even a challenging game which calls itself "prepare to die edition" seems like a strange way to market itself, as if implying you will lose, and I can't imagine any gamer wants to be told how approximately often they'll fail.

    However, and this is somewhat unrelated, but even though I acknowledge not everyone is going to like the same game, I would hope that someone might look at this one... http://store.steampowered.com/app/206440/ It's a short game and its strict focus is on story, but I find the story well told and the experience made me feel like my money was well-spent.

    Another game which has my attention, which I did create a separate thread for, is this: https://sites.google.com/site/letsma...ox---downloads It's currently free and very early in development but looks like it'll greatly evolve on the building sandbox genre in many ways which I find desirable. I realize that many people are sick of the blocky look in games lately but I have lots of faith in this one and since it is so early in development, it needs lots of testing, especially since the recent update has attempted to make it more compatible with more graphics setups.

    And finally, there's this: http://www.lordsofuberdark.com/ While still within the building sandbox genre, everyone might notice a strange lack of blocks. I've been keeping my eye on this game for months and have been a member of the forums since last year. It has a great community but its development is a bit slow at the moment, though an update is expected soon.
    If you say "plz" because it's shorter than "please," I'll say "no" because it's shorter than "yes."

  10. #30
    OMG YOU GUYS SO MANY GAMES LATELY
    okay lets see, where to start
    yeah I rented both Bioshocks
    played them back to back
    best two weeks of my life
    I'm seriously going through withdrawal
    it's like the post-Avatar blues!
    I miss Rapture (and killing everything in it) :c
    Also I'm in love with Dead Island
    believe me, I know how flawed it is
    I'm not glossing over that but
    it is truly enjoyable for me and
    what other game is quite like it (please tell me I want more zombie apocalypse free-roamers!)
    yeah what else, okay
    Castlevania: Lords Of Shadow was kinda underrated IMO
    yes, it's a blatant God of War clone, but it works
    think about it, Castlevania has always been at its best with loads of action, huge levels
    and gargantuan bosses that try your nerves/reflexes and besides
    it convinced me to finally get God of War 3
    which was a bit overrated I felt but was hardly bad
    I just wish it'd had the sense of exploration of the first two
    it felt kinda small in comparison, didn't even have many new enemies (if any)
    I played Metal Gear Solid 4 recently. Yeah, not a bad movie... I guess?!
    I dunno, might get that box set just so I understand Ground Zeros
    which reminds me I gotta pre-order RE 6
    I have a total anticipation boner for that game and it hurts
    also, I, okay wait I lost my train of thought
    okay yeah, Skyrim, Fallout 3, New Vegas, those are still fun, somehow
    Silent Hill Downpour, loved it, first Silent Hill in years to feel like Silent Hill
    can't forget Crysis 2 which was awesome
    I really enjoyed Resistance 3, I just wish there was more to it
    but damn if it doesn't look good and feel like humanity is doomed
    Operation Raccoon City... well at least I didn't spend that money on drugs?
    actually I don't think drugs would've left me feeling quite that empty inside
    And InFamous is alright but feels pretty damn repetitive

    I have no life :3

 

 

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