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  1. #151
    Regular xarg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendikins View Post
    That would fall under visibility. Making it clear filters are available when you flick the "Show me the porn" switch wouldn't be a bad idea.
    It wouldn't hurt to make it clear they are available whenever you look at a picture. To be honest it should be possible to block a set of tags with only a couple clicks from the thumbnails. For example: "Block images like this" link next to the thumbnail -> Block by rating/artist/tags -> Select the tags the image has that you want to block. Maybe even include counts of how many images in total have each tag as a tooltip there. And obviously after you'd click "Block images like this" you shouldn't be shown the image in the next view.

    Pretty much wherever there are tags shown, you should be able to block any one of them with just a click.
    Last edited by xarg; 04-28-2014 at 04:45 PM.

  2. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Term View Post
    And as Frank mentioned, all of this alone may not even be the reason why we don't attract a more varied group of users. As I said earlier in the thread, my best guess is visibility of the site as a viable option to host content. But I think we need to do more than simply just be another avenue for signal boosting. There's ways for us to set ourselves apart that could make us appear as a more attractive option for artists than the next site and hopefully we can implement those things and campaign to the world "hey look at what we do!"
    This "avenue for signal boosting" is something I've noticed as almost a norm, in a sense that this site gets used a lot to direct people elsewhere - like a space to advertise first, conduct anything second. As for why, maybe it's just because it's so young with other sites so huge and old around. There's less visibility, and thus fewer bites with any immediacy (which most people seem to need) for anyone that might even want to start here with their business first. And from a buyer's standpoint, that gives less incentive to watch this place like a hawk at the risk of missing out on something, as I've experienced.

    But I haven't seen much of this happen the other way around, linking to weasyl. And from one perspective for me it's like this (hopefully in a way that makes sense, but - ): Bringing people over from DA, from tumblr, even from twitter or facebook - basically any non-furry dominated site - it's like, what are they going to be greeted with if they venture away from the linker's profile? People who have accounts here, but aren't openly involved with... unusual stuff whether they're cool with it or not (furry, fetish, you decide - unfortunately for some there isn't a huge difference, right?) might be stuck having their weasyl as some secret corner of theirs on the internet until this site gets more of a varied flow of submissions. So then, when anyone ventures onto the front page they won't get smacked with thinking "whoa, this is a ___ site" (anything but "general", more or less).

    I realize this is more of a "this is one of the problems" comment than one with an answer or suggestion, but this is stuff that's been on my mind a lot while trying to make this site my main gallery.

  3.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #153
    Crabby Admin Term's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Socks the Fox View Post
    So explain to me again why we don't set up some default blacklisted tags? Hell, even default-blacklisting just the "fetish" tag would be an improvement. Like I've already pointed out with examples earlier, not all things that can be considered fetish material are above General ratings. Guests are exposed to these, and they definitely leave an impression on the guest as to what kind of site this aspires to be.
    Frankly because the term fetish alone is too broad and subjective to be used effectively.

    What you and I would view as fetish isn't necessarily the same. We've attempted giving examples earlier of scenarios of where someone's interpretation may differ but here's a few more:

    A dastardly villain has a damsel tied up in his clutches or on a railroad track. Is this a bondage fetish?

    A cartoon male rabbit dresses up as a woman to fool a hunter. Cross dressing/trap fetish?

    An obese character goes to the local swimming pool. Fat fetish?

    A man wakes up on a foreign beach where a bunch of people no bigger than his thumb are attempting to tie him down. Size play + bondage fetish?

    You may be able to pick out some of these examples as famous works, and that's the point. All it takes is an over zealous community member to tag each of these images as "fetish" and suddenly these images are included in the blacklist, possibly unfairly so. "Fetish" isn't an objective tag 100% of the time, and it's not fair to everyone else to write off an image as fetish just because one person believes it to be.

    Through this whole discussion we've yet to concretely define what exactly a fetish image is. Short of the "I know it when I see it" test, there's really nothing to go on short of specifically identifying what images you'd like to be removed from your searches. This is why I suggest you attempt to refine and be more specific in what content you don't want to view. As shown by the list Hendikins posted, several hundred people specifically listed "scat" as something they don't wish to view. That's a bit more concrete than just saying "fetish." Combined with whatever content rating they may already be employing, they will likely not find images they don't wish to view.

    In short, you mention not all things that could be considered fetish material are above the General rating. I and others argue that not everything you may interpret as a fetish image in General is necessarily by default a fetish image.
    Last edited by Term; 04-28-2014 at 05:58 PM.

  4.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #154
    Retired Staff Frank LeRenard's Avatar
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    Yeah... I mean, in addition to what Term said, I think you (Socks) are coming at this from the perspective of 'there are things I wouldn't like to see popping up on the front page of Weasyl' and then extrapolating that to this nebulous concept of 'general audiences' that we want to attract to the site. So maybe your opinions are representative, but maybe they're not. All I'm saying is that it's a pretty tenuous data point to be basing a large-scale, almost certainly drama-inducing change on. Plus, the proposed change is to by default block out 'fetish' art, and I think Term detailed very well how problematic this is to actually introduce in practice. In theory it's very easy, but practice is where things actually happen.

    In other words, let's not be making decisions based on what an unknown audience who hasn't even weighed in on this discussion may or may not want to see, especially when the proposed decisions would almost certainly impact our current audience in a way they would not appreciate (by making their artwork less visible). I'm thinking it would make more sense right now to probe around a bit more and see if we can't just attract a more general audience through something simple, like more advertising outside of places like FA. I myself don't actually know how much of that we've done (I'm not involved in PR or advertising, and I don't go to cons).

    I do still like the idea of making preset filter setups, though. That would be a boon, certainly, to folks who do have issues with fetish art, and it wouldn't impact the viewing habits of those who don't since it wouldn't be default.

  5.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #155
    The Lurking Wolfox Hendikins's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Socks the Fox View Post
    So explain to me again why we don't set up some default blacklisted tags?
    Well lets see, so far we've had the following:
    * The definition argument (the term "fetish" is too broad and subjective)
    * The philosophical arguments (our site/your screen, rights of artists)
    * The moderation arguments (it generates a lot of work but is of dubious benefit, user backlash)
    * "Lies, damned lies and statistics" (hard numbers about what our users do)
    * Discussion of how to improve the systems we already have (good stuff, I might add)

    And since you've used that particular phrasing, allow me to add "The developers have better/more important things to do".

    Quote Originally Posted by Socks the Fox View Post
    Like I've already pointed out with examples earlier, not all things that can be considered fetish material are above General ratings. Guests are exposed to these, and they definitely leave an impression on the guest as to what kind of site this aspires to be.
    You're still evading the point that material with a general rating has to be suitable for a general audience. If it's bad enough that it would have to be blocked by default, it's not suitable for a general audience, and shouldn't get a general rating.

    What constitutes a general rating is defined by the staff (through the site rules) with moderation to fix up any issues after the fact. If there is a heap of "general but not really general" art then we've got an issue with the definition of the rating - in which case the rating criteria need fixing rather than arbitrarily blacklisting things.

    A question for you, since you've consistently presented the same argument despite all the above. Can you provide us with hard evidence that general rated art is turning away large numbers of potential users? We've done our part by expressing opposing views in a reasoned manner and even presenting the one hard data set we have - which is what our users do.

    Quote Originally Posted by xarg View Post
    It wouldn't hurt to make it clear they are available whenever you look at a picture.
    I'd be interested in seeing a UI mock up for this. If it can be done without being convoluted or creating excessive UI clutter it's certainly worth considering.
    Last edited by Hendikins; 04-28-2014 at 10:19 PM.

  6.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #156
    The Lurking Wolfox Hendikins's Avatar

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    I've been provided with an additional data set, which is not directly comparable with Weasyl's Top 30 but interesting nonetheless:

    Blacklisted Tags on e621 - all tags filtered by 10 or more users on e621 as at March 2011 (approx.).

  7. #157
    Toshabi Pronouns Only Toshabi's Avatar

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    I think that the staff should have the right to dictate what the site is meant to be. Fetish farm or not, I feel as though Weasyl has some potential as an artsite that doesn't have to house adult rated materials, given there are several other sites specifically for that. When I first came to Weasyl, I felt that it'd have more productive art in mind as opposed to fetishy stuff. It kind of is, for the most part, but it doesn't exactly feel right. I know I fall under the "shit out of luck"/"Can't please everyone" category (or the world famous, "Lol, you aren't filtering hard enough"), but despite all this, the general submission flow does reflect the image of its artists generally. When I print out those Weasyl artist cards with the QR code on it and hand it to contacts, what will there impression be of me? By being on this art site, won't this sort of add a muck of prejudice at first glance by outside users if they know weasyls homepage tk house such grotesque images? It's starting to feel like a "You don't draw porn/fetishes, why are you on there!?" kind of artsite, much like how it was with me and <that one site that won't be mentioned>.

    I say this not out of "bloobloo things ain't going my way and I dunt liek dis shit bloobloobloo", but out of sheer curiosity about the image this content pushes on it's general users. Cause all in all, it looks like "typical furry artsite"to outsiders. II'll refine these thoughts later, but I want to put this out there because I've been having some doubts with using weasyl because of this. I thought of weasyl at first as a happy medium between furry and generalalike, but it looks like that iisn't so.

  8.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #158
    The Lurking Wolfox Hendikins's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toshabi View Post
    It's starting to feel like a "You don't draw porn/fetishes, why are you on there!?" kind of artsite, much like how it was with me and <that one site that won't be mentioned>.
    Being a site that welcomes all artists (within reason) is a bit of a double edged sword. It's even worse when we're in a thread where some folks are pushing to make some artists less welcome than others ("Oh sure, you can post here, but we'll block your stuff by default"). It wouldn't be prudent to come to that conclusion based on the contents of this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toshabi View Post
    I thought of weasyl at first as a happy medium between furry and generalalike, but it looks like that iisn't so.
    I think the biggest problem in that respect is where our users have come from. Many of the staff (including myself) come from a furry background, and word of mouth is a big thing in that community. I'd say it's more an accident than anything else that we've got such a large furry userbase.

    The $64 question is - what is in the pipeline to broaden the appeal of the site? It seems people want our audience to be more like DA than FA, but that requires marketing and enticement.

  9. #159
    Toshabi Pronouns Only Toshabi's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendikins View Post
    Being a site that welcomes all artists (within reason) is a bit of a double edged sword. It's even worse when we're in a thread where some folks are pushing to make some artists less welcome than others ("Oh sure, you can post here, but we'll block your stuff by default"). It wouldn't be prudent to come to that conclusion based on the contents of this thread.
    I suppose that comes with drawing the lines on what kind of crowd you ultimately want to attract and what your ultimate goal with the site is going to be. All art draws their own specific crowds. I'm not going to say which is better, which is worse, or how it is, but to your own personal experiences, I think we can both have some what of a hive understanding about what specific subjects pull, in terms of audience and populous.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hendikins View Post
    I think the biggest problem in that respect is where our users have come from. Many of the staff (including myself) come from a furry background, and word of mouth is a big thing in that community. I'd say it's more an accident than anything else that we've got such a large furry userbase.

    The $64 question is - what is in the pipeline to broaden the appeal of the site? It seems people want our audience to be more like DA than FA, but that requires marketing and enticement.
    Yeah, and I can't really blame the Weasyl staff for any of it. The eruption was a blessing and a curse. We got activity and all, but at the cost of changing the balance. Honestly, the topic of "subject" became incredibly important right after these events. I was honestly hoping the weasyl staff had a clear plan for advertising to general audiences and furry audiences alike, given the communities goal of a general art site. It seems like that wasn't the case. I mean this in no offense. Perhaps they do. But as a investor(despite how little it all really is), I have to call them like I see them.

  10.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #160
    The Lurking Wolfox Hendikins's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toshabi View Post
    I was honestly hoping the weasyl staff had a clear plan for advertising to general audiences and furry audiences alike, given the communities goal of a general art site. It seems like that wasn't the case. I mean this in no offense. Perhaps they do. But as a investor(despite how little it all really is), I have to call them like I see them.
    I'll be honest, I'm not really involved with PR beyond what is required as a mainsite moderator (in fact, getting this involved in this thread feels like I'm overstepping my boundaries a bit). I'm going to have to let somebody higher up the food chain answer that. It does feel like the influx of users threw a spanner in the works though.

    Suggestions are always welcome though - sometimes our users do know better than us.
    Last edited by Hendikins; 04-29-2014 at 04:10 AM.

 

 

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