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  1.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #131
    Retired Staff Frank LeRenard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xarg
    One unadressed problem with pre-set filters is still that there are going to be people that are upset about why something is blocked but something else is not.
    Well, at some point you just have to rely on the 'you can't please everybody' approach, too. Some people will be pissed no matter what you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socks the Fox View Post
    So stuff like this should be marked explicit? How about this? This one isn't even furry, just to show that it's not furry-specific.

    Not everything that should be labeled "fetish" is necessarily explicit, yet would still be something plenty of people would rather avoid. All it takes is a default filter applied to guests.
    I can't actually access the website myself right now to look at those images you linked (currently using Fed-provided internet with filters), but I imagine I can guess what they might be. This kind of comes back to the 'can't please everybody' idea, though, although obviously in this context it's a lot more debatable where to draw the line. Part of the issue, I think, is that it's tough to come up with a filter system that would achieve exactly the intended purpose. Like, I know when you or I look at a picture we tend to think it's easy to tell when it's a fetish piece or not, but then you have to take that subjective human opinion and turn it into machine language somehow. Then you end up blocking a picture of a child blowing up a balloon because 'inflation' becomes a bad word.
    But maybe the more important point is that we also have to consider that folks who draw fetish art are our users, too, and that they have an audience of their own. You know?

    So really, this is getting a little philosophical. I think the main idea is still how to get more non-furry artists to want to join the site. And in that regard, unfortunately it's still an unproven statement that having the occasional G-rated foot-fetish furry art show up on the front page or whatever is one of the main things keeping non-furry users away from the site. That may be the case, but I would be hesitant to start tackling the problem like it was without more substantial proof of that. Just from a practical perspective.

  2. #132
    I think the easiest thing to do for everyone involved would be to make the "fetish" tag be added to the tag blacklist by default, even for guests. Logged in users would be able to remove it from their blacklist if they so chose. Then it'll be up to the community to tag the fetish stuff, and from there normal tag rules apply. You'll still have the few that slip through, but the key thing is to try and cut down on the downright bizarre and to many unappealing concepts that frequent the front page that turn away people that don't want to be associated with a site that is just swarming with that stuff (and if people keep seeing it, that's how they'll view the site).

    There will be those that will be upset that their general-classified vore is now hidden away by default, but we're not forbidding people from viewing it. We're just hiding it in the basement and telling people "yeah there's some pretty freaky stuff down there, don't go unless you're okay with it."

    It will, however, be important to make it so users are aware of the blacklist feature and the default blacklisted tag, so those that do want to see it know where to go to enable it (and those that want to see even less will know how to do that too).

  3. #133
    Senior Rilvor's Avatar
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    Chiming in to say that I think a set of default filters for all users is an excellent idea.

    As it is now, it seems like it would require a fair bit of sifting on the part of every single user to figure out a way of setting it up to not be "ugh"-inducing to visit the front page. Even the people who want to see some kinds of artwork might not want to see others, although it is granted that these people probably have more extensive knowledge of the matter.

    This idea would mean that it'd take a bit of legwork on the part of those who want to see it, but overall I think far less for everyone involved (Save the Staff, whom I and hopefully everyone else understands do this on their own time).

    So in a nutshell, every user having to think of every fetish they may not want to see vs. checkboxes for those who do want to see certain kinds of material.

  4.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #134
    The Lurking Wolfox Hendikins's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenith View Post
    This is a nice workaround for the people here, but it isn't really of much use for the many users who don't come to the forums, and aren't technically inclined.

    I've seen this feature requested several times now, so it should probably be in that thingy you guys have. (that website that logs all the bugs and stuff...I can't remember what it's called and haven't been able to find the address since whenever it was announced.)
    I haven't looked to see whether this has been submitted to Redmine - I mainly use it for back of house stuff. I've posted the workaround as a courtesy, because it takes time for triage, development, testing, etc. and it's nice to have an option in the mean time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socks the Fox View Post
    I think the easiest thing to do for everyone involved would be to make the "fetish" tag be added to the tag blacklist by default, even for guests.
    The biggest problem with defaults is that most people never change them. This is why defaults have to be sensible and set with that in mind.

    The other thing? We're still getting the whole "I want to impose my standards on the whole community" argument here, which isn't going to happen. The artists who post this stuff have as much right to post it as you have to not see it.

    Another way to look at it: It's our site, but it's your viewport. The owners and administrators decide what content they want on the site, and you get to decide what you want to see. We even provide tools to help you do it (has anyone here browsed Fur Affinity lately?).

    Edit: Stats moved to separate post

    Quote Originally Posted by Socks the Fox View Post
    There will be those that will be upset that their general-classified vore is now hidden away by default, but we're not forbidding people from viewing it.
    General rated content must be suitable for a general audience. If the content isn't suitable for a general audience, it shouldn't be rated as such, and if it isn't it won't be seen by guests.

    Hiding thumbnails for submissions rated higher than a specified rating? Good idea.
    Having grouped/related tags to make it easier to search for and filter content? Great idea.
    Increase visibility and awareness of the filtering system? That's good too.
    Imposing the views of a minority of users on the whole community? Bad idea.
    Last edited by Hendikins; 04-28-2014 at 12:25 AM. Reason: Statistics

  5. #135
    I think to help spread information more and get users more interested you guys could start by having the news posts you put on the forums and tumblr also show up on the weasyl main sight in peoples message centers. Those news/update posts aren't very often so they shouldn't get annoying to the user base.

    You could also have a "welcome" message for new users in their message center. You know the typical welcome lots of forums have, here's a link to the FAQ, and here are some of our cool features, and where you can find them, and how they can be utilized.

    I think it's in everyone's best interest that more work get put into educating users about tags and things. Tags make it easier for people to find particular things, and they make it easier for people to filter them out too. The whole Tag/Filter thing is one of my favorite things about Weasyl, which is probably why it's so darn frustrating to me that it's like pulling teeth to get it to work properly cause not everyone uses them.

    Make news posts discussing tags, compile tags from the community for various things and share them on the main sight.

    Establish more of a dialogue in general about the features and how they can be used, and who's using them and how and why. I dunno if it's already a thing you all are doing, but get a staffer or several staffers who's sole job is community relations See if anyone is willing to volunteer to sift through the website and try to add tags to things. Add a section for under-tagged stuff for bored users to sift through and add tags to.

    Ok I'm done turning my brain inside out for now, maybe I'll be back again.


    (And I just looked at the tumblr, and noticed it links to the redmine at the bottom, dunno how I missed that, now I'll be able to find it! I still think the links to the redmine need to be more visible elsewhere however. There is a SFW mode in progress, I presume hiding thumbnails for adult/mature material falls under the umbrella of "SFW Mode")
    Fish heads! Fish heads! Rolly polly fish heads! Fish heads! Fish heads! Eat them up! Yum!

  6.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #136
    The Lurking Wolfox Hendikins's Avatar

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    Since we're discussing content ratings, tag filtering, etc. I've asked our techs for some numbers on what our users are doing.

    Maximum rating set for account
    General: 34.58%
    Moderate: 2.77%
    Mature: 1.42%
    Explicit: 61.23%

    Percentage of users filtering by account rating
    Overall: 2.84%
    Overall (logged in within last month): 4.54%
    General rating: 0.54%
    Moderate rating: 5.46%
    Mature rating: 8.42%
    Explicit rating: 3.90%

    Average number of tags filtered (where filtering is enabled): 6.

    Make of these numbers what you will.

    The two things that stand out to me:
    * Over a third of users don't enable higher ratings
    * Only 4% of people who enable mature/explicit art filter anything.
    Last edited by Hendikins; 04-28-2014 at 12:56 AM.

  7. #137
    I won't try to make anything of the numbers because I'm not a statistician, and I'm mathematically impaired on top of that. But this information seems a little incomplete to really be useful.


    Does "average number of tags filtered" mean most people only have 6 filters in total? Or something else?

    For filtering/tagging being one of the sites biggest feature it's being used very little.

    Do they have statistics on white lists vs black lists? I only use my tags to black list things. But I'm sure some of the people up there filtering are using their filters to help them find exactly what they want right?
    Fish heads! Fish heads! Rolly polly fish heads! Fish heads! Fish heads! Eat them up! Yum!

  8.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #138
    The Lurking Wolfox Hendikins's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenith View Post
    But this information seems a little incomplete to really be useful.
    It's the best readily available information we have - hard numbers about our existing users. Guests can't filter, and it stands to reason that we don't know what people who don't use the site do.

    Quote Originally Posted by lorenith View Post
    Does "average number of tags filtered" mean most people only have 6 filters in total? Or something else?
    It means that people who enable filtering use it to filter 6 tags on average. The most tags filtered by a single user is apparently 344.

    As a point of interest, the most commonly filtered tag is "scat". This is filtered by 0.99% of all accounts on the site. If we (reasonably) assume that only users with 18+ content enabled are filtering this tag, that's still only 1.58% of those accounts.

    Quote Originally Posted by lorenith View Post
    For filtering/tagging being one of the sites biggest feature it's being used very little.
    It is, and of course we can only speculate as to why this is the case.

    - Do people not know the feature exists? (Improve visibility)
    - Do people think it would be ineffective? (Improve tagging)
    - Do people consider it too cumbersome? (Implement related tags, tag groups, etc.)
    - Do people just not care?

    This sort of stuff won't show up in the numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by lorenith View Post
    Do they have statistics on white lists vs black lists? I only use my tags to black list things. But I'm sure some of the people up there filtering are using their filters to help them find exactly what they want right?
    Good question. Because of timezone differences I'll have to get back to you on that.

    On a side note, I'd like to thank the tech guys for supplying the numbers - I really appreciate the effort and rapid response.
    Last edited by Hendikins; 04-28-2014 at 09:15 AM.

  9. #139
    Regular xarg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendikins View Post
    As a point of interest, the most commonly filtered tag is "scat". This is filtered by 0.99% of all accounts on the site. If we (reasonably) assume that only users with 18+ content enabled are filtering this tag, that's still only 1.58% of those accounts.
    If I read the above numbers correct, that means it's 0.99% out of all of the 2.84% of users with enabled tag filters, which would mean that out of the people who use tag filters 34% filter out "scat", which is IMO a highly more interesting statistic than 0.99% of all users (of which most are dormant inactive accounts probably, that make up the 99.01%)

    The above numbers could use a bit more explanatory titles... Here I'm assuming "Percentage of users filtering by account rating" means percentage of users that use tag filters.

    Also I think it's moderately interesting that "Mature" has the highest amount of users using tag filters... Are the rules so unclear that you have to filter out explicit content or what?

    It might be interesting to get a larger list of the "most hated" tags and how many people filter them out, just in the name of science too.
    Last edited by xarg; 04-28-2014 at 10:01 AM.

  10.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #140
    The Lurking Wolfox Hendikins's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by xarg View Post
    which would mean that out of the people who use tag filters 34% filter out "scat", which is IMO a highly more interesting statistic than 0.99% of all users (of which most are dormant inactive accounts probably, that make up the 99.01%)
    Yes, just over a third of users with filters enabled filter the tag "scat", which is also an interesting statistic. I'm not going to trouble the guys with requests for stuff like "top tags filtered by accounts active in the last month" because we've already established that only 4.54% of accounts that have signed in within the last month use the tag filtering system. As a percentage of total users it's still tiny.

    It's a bit messy to put in a post, so here's the Top 30 Filtered Tags in a Google Docs spreadsheet. I've included the percentage of accounts with filters enabled that filter each tag, along with percentage of total accounts.

    Two things are for certain:
    * No tag is filtered by a majority of users who have filtering enabled
    * Upwards of 95% of users don't use tag filtering at all (regardless of whether you use "all accounts" or "logged in within last month")

    In my personal opinion, this would indicate that a default blacklist is unlikely to be desirable to our users.

    Quote Originally Posted by xarg View Post
    The above numbers could use a bit more explanatory titles... Here I'm assuming "Percentage of users filtering by account rating" means percentage of users that use tag filters.
    Yes, that's percentage of users with a particular maximum rating (General/Moderate/Mature/Explicit) who utilise tag filters.

    Quote Originally Posted by xarg View Post
    Also I think it's moderately interesting that "Mature" has the highest amount of users using tag filters... Are the rules so unclear that you have to filter out explicit content or what?
    My guess is that it's because submissions that should be marked "Explicit" are being incorrectly marked "Mature" (or even "Moderate") when uploaded. We've certainly had to deal with enough "incorrect content rating" tickets to know it happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by lorenith View Post
    Do they have statistics on white lists vs black lists? I only use my tags to black list things. But I'm sure some of the people up there filtering are using their filters to help them find exactly what they want right?
    I have been advised that at last check 3 people were using the whitelist functionality.

 

 

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