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  1. #1
    Banned Tycho's Avatar
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    "Feminism helps men too!"

    Prove it. I see this claim tossed around a lot, by both feminists and non-feminists. I am really rather curious as to how feminism is helping men. I see it doing lots of other things, like engaging in the censorship of dissenting voices and the promotion of threat narratives, but I don't really see it ever actually helping men.

  2. #2
    Have you ever been shamed for liking something because it was feminine?
    Fish heads! Fish heads! Rolly polly fish heads! Fish heads! Fish heads! Eat them up! Yum!

  3. #3
    Premium User FishNChips's Avatar

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    My main gripe with feminism is how it's a melting pot of all these conflicting views so I can't help but be highly skeptical of "feminist viewpoints" when they're mentioned.

    People are gonna hate me for this:

    There's a great number of feminists out there who seem to only focus on women's issues, do the most to minimize men's issues by asserting that they're self-inflicted and had nothing to do with women, refuse to acknowledge how women are better off in certain ways, and only refer to "we help men too" as a kind of anti-criticism shield if they're not already trying to respond with ad hominem and demonising those that oppose them, because after all, if you have a viewpoint that oppose's one person's idea of equality, you must be a advocate of inequality and prejudice.

    The "Ban Bossy" campaign, for example was a feminist movement. Out of all the groups of people to criticise the campaign, one of them were feminists.

    Feminists can't even agree with each other. Feminism is a reeaaal mixed bag. That's why it's A-Grade flamebait. Some feminists are level-headed, some feminists are insane.

    Quote Originally Posted by lorenith View Post
    Have you ever been shamed for liking something because it was feminine?
    Out of all the problems that men can face where the fact that they're male is a major deciding factor, what makes you think that anyone cares about this problem in particular?

    There are so many ways that a man can be at a disadvantage for simply being male in social services, the legal system, and day-to-day social issues, and feminism has not yet had a single campaign for these issues, let alone a victory.

    Unless of course there was one that I haven't noticed.
    Last edited by FishNChips; 04-09-2014 at 05:19 PM.

  4. #4
    Banned Tycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenith View Post
    Have you ever been shamed for liking something because it was feminine?
    Not personally. I don't think I ever got into MLP enough to be considered a "brony", but there was some indirect shaming being done to any male that watched it. Thing is, that shame was coming from people who conflated finding the cartoon entertaining with being a potential pedophile, or viewed the idea of a guy watching MLP to be an encroachment upon the domain of the feminine by a male (the "you're not the target audience, you shouldn't be watching it, you don't get to have an opinion on it" spiel). I fail to see how feminism does anything to address that.

  5.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #5
    Didn't try, Succeeded Fay V's Avatar



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    You pretty much hit it Gibby. It's not a singular group or movement, so someone acting under "feminism" could be anyone from someone seeking more policy structures or someone on the internet that's made about a movie. Meh.

    For the question at hand it does happen when the overall goal is not "boo men" but focused on the idea of patriarchy being a harm to men and women both.

    The patriarchy not being "all men are dicks and the source of all things wrong" but rather that a system has been built by a particular group of powerful men, so a system is in place to keep them in power. For women this hurts in more obvious ways like a lack of vote, poor policies for domestic abuse, and other more historical examples. With men it's harmful because they are being held to the standard of these particular men.
    The system has roles for men and women to benefit a small group. So men have this role they have to fit of being big, powerful, masculine.
    In the late 1800s, 1900s you see women and men both working out of the home falling out of favor, and idea primarily pushed by the social elite. Women were pushed to a domestic role and should stay home, men were pushed to become the sole breadwinners. This hurts in a more basic manner as it's forcing men to really push themselves toward a certain type of job, type of lifestyle.

    A more modern version is the abyssmal treatment of men in divorce courts. Feminists that are focused on power structure problems are not asking for all the benefits in a divorce, but rather want both sides to see actual equality. Because women have a traditional association with maternity, domensticity, and men have the role of working breadwinner that needs to focus on career, there is a lot of bias in things like child custody. It's very hard for a man to get custody of his children over a woman. That's not fair and it's not okay.
    There have been feminist groups, and more specifically feminist academics focusing on such policies in order to fix them.

    You see the same thing with groups looking out for actual equality for domestic abuse, rape, and sexual assault cases. The way rape is treated by the law is bad on both sides for different reasons. For women it's been a process of getting rid of the "well if she liked it, it's not rape" idea. There's been policy changes like the standard being changed from having to constantly do everything in their power to escape the situation. So if a girl stopped fighting it was no longer treated as rape. For the men you have problems of being legitimized in court. Because this box of masculinity that some men face they see a lot of problems like not being treated seriously by police, being laughed off, or people believing that male rape isn't possible.

    Like Gibby said, it's a mixed bag, so there are absolutely the types that don't help. The type I described is one more focused on patriarchy as a concept rather than gender specifically, and that goes into looking at power structures as a whole, meaning overall it's the powerful disadvantaging the weaker in order to stay in power, and systems coming from that history. So you look at symptoms within gender, race, sexuality to fix it. This means that a lot of the people that are working on policies to improve things aren't just feminists, but also look at race and the other ways people can be disadvantaged.

    If the feminist is part of the group that is just angry at men and treats every man as the source of problems then you don't see a lot done.

  6. #6
    Senior Matt Conner's Avatar
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    The problem with feminism (at least radical feminism as I've seen it) is that they aren't really seeking equality as much as they are revenge. It's a very childish mentality reminiscent of a child demanding that his mother should break his sibling's toy because he broke his first. They ironically do damage to their own cause by placing even more emphasis on gender differences than their supposed opponents. It's to the point that I begin to wonder how more reasonable feminists can even stand to call themselves that given the number of batshit insane, stupid, whiny, man-hating social justice warriors that populate the movement now. Most women I know agree with me, too.
    Yeah? well, y'know...that's just like, your opinion, man.

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  7. #7
    Before you jump to the wrong conclusion on me like in the past. I can only say what comes to mind, which isn't very much cause when I think of feminism I do tend to think about how often it ends in poor/unfair treatment of men.

    To me it's a terrible thing to be shamed just because you enjoy something. Considering how much adolescent suicide has spiked as a result of bullying and such (in America at least) yeah, it actually is an important piece of the puzzle to me, especially having gotten to observe first hand how nasty boys can get when one of their male peers show preferences that have been identified as feminine, among all the other things that people get bullied for. You can brush it off as unimportant if you want to but it isn't.

    Let me add to that further, referencing an article QT posted a month or two ago.

    Boys are encouraged to avoid things that could blossom into a great interest and job path as an adult, simply because those things are lesser womens things. I've hated it in the past when I've been obstructed from an interest based on my gender, and I hate it that the same thing happens to men as well. Yeah we (humanity as a whole) have the freedom to still pursue those things, but one has to fight a strong undercurrent and lots of very scornful people in doing so, and that sucks. For men and women. If there was more respect for "feminine" things there wouldn't be an issue.

    I generally avoid isms, because they all carry too much baggage and I hate having to explain that no, all that baggage is not something I embrace.

    As far as I'm concerned sexism is bad regardless of who is expressing it. But also I see feminism as about helping improve things for women specifically, I honestly don't care if feminism helps men or not, as long as it doesn't hurt men, because feminism is about helping women, it's not about helping men.

    It's also why I think of myself as eh...whatever it is when you think everyone should be treated equally, I want to say humanist, but that has baggage too apparently, although I don't know what the baggage is.
    Fish heads! Fish heads! Rolly polly fish heads! Fish heads! Fish heads! Eat them up! Yum!

  8. #8
    Senior SirCoffeecup's Avatar
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  9. #9
    Regular ASTA's Avatar
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    This thread can only end well.

  10. #10
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    hey guys what's happen-...



    As much as I can go on and on about this topic, I'm just staying out of it. At least, that's what I'm telling myself now.

 

 

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