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  1. #21
    Regular xarg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenith View Post
    Cultural differences don't really come into it, artwork categorized in general has to be suitable for all audience. Which means the general rating can't have any material in it that would easily bother someone with a prudish point of view, someone who is sensitivity to violence, or someone who doesn't want to see drugs/alcohol.
    It's a bit naive to claim that cultural differences could not have any effect on the view that the community has. Being suitable for all audiences of all ages does not mean that someone somewhere could not have a problem with it.

    I grew up in Europe too, and I am aware that my view of what is generally acceptable in the public is very much different from, for example that of an average person living in Saudi Arabia. According to your view, culture values not making any difference, we should not have any arts of subjects that have bare skin or the equivalent visible, no? That might offend someone.

    What were you going after with the last paragraph? I failed to find the point other than teachers not wanting to see raunchy subjects.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by xarg View Post
    It's a bit naive to claim that cultural differences could not have any effect on the view that the community has. Being suitable for all audiences of all ages does not mean that someone somewhere could not have a problem with it.

    I grew up in Europe too, and I am aware that my view of what is generally acceptable in the public is very much different from, for example that of an average person living in Saudi Arabia. According to your view, culture values not making any difference, we should not have any arts of subjects that have bare skin or the equivalent visible, no? That might offend someone.

    What were you going after with the last paragraph? I failed to find the point other than teachers not wanting to see raunchy subjects.
    My point is that cultural difference doesn't change the rules which is that the general rating is meant to be safe for all audiences, not just some audiences. The point of my final paragraph is about respecting that there are cultural differences actually, rather than going "well where I'm from it's ok, so just deal with it".

  3. #23
    Those are good points. And yeah I do think general should be just that, G-rated.

    Maybe having the default selection be moderate would help? I noticed that the default is blank, so you have to select something, but I suppose if by default the art is moderate, would that help?

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  4. #24
    Regular Aster's Avatar
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    As interesting, and valid, as these last few posts have been, I'm pretty sure you've gone off on a bit of a tangent, which is understandable since we went from "would an advanced tagging system be useful" to "how would you define the advanced tags".

    The problem isn't what is, or is not, "safe for all ages" in different cultural groups. Different cultures have different opinions on these subjects, they always will, and we'll never be able to consolidate all of them. But this is a non-issue, because the staff have already stated what they consider to be "general" or "mature", and their rules are the only ones that matter on this website. If they decided to implement an advanced tagging system, their definition of each "level" of maturity is the one everyone should be using.

    If you think the rules as they stand should be updated, that would warrant a new thread.

    Anyway... I think there are two problems with the current ratings system:

    A) People don't read/understand the reasonably thorough Ratings Guide

    If you take the time to read through the Rating Guide, it tells you exactly what counts as General and what counts as Moderate. For example, completely nude characters are permissible in General so long as they're essentially Barbie dolls; and swimwear is allowed so long as there are no nipple/genital bulges. People are obviously not doing a good job following these rules though. I would like to suggest two things that might help. Firstly, the link to the Rating Guide is tiny and buried inside multiple lines of text. This link should be far more obvious. Secondly, the Rating Guide needs to be presented in an easier-to-follow manner. Jumping from category to category just to figure out what is allowed in one category is a poor way to do this. Heck, even sorting the rating-breakdown into a table would be easier to understand.

    B) People are dicks and are deliberately mis-tagging.

    No matter what ratings system you use, this is going to be a (fairly small) problem. Report these people.


    EDIT: Also, the OP mentioned that the suggestion was made in the hopes that the ratings could serve as an advanced filter.

    Working the rating-breakdowns into the submissions process might be the better way to make an advanced rating system, but one that could very easily become far too complicated for its own good. I think figuring out how/if that would work is the way we should be taking this.
    Last edited by Aster; 01-25-2014 at 09:41 PM.
    don't mind me; i'm just insane

  5. #25
    I think that it might help to compile some picture examples in the rating guide, and link it directly on the submission page as well. I also like the though having it set to moderate by default, and generally making it harder to just plunk things down right into general without thinking about it.

    (and thank you Aster for getting my point across better, I wish I was better at saying what I mean clearly -_-;; ).

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Aster View Post
    If you take the time to read through the Rating Guide, it tells you exactly what counts as General and what counts as Moderate. For example, completely nude characters are permissible in General so long as they're essentially Barbie dolls; and swimwear is allowed so long as there are no nipple/genital bulges. People are obviously not doing a good job following these rules though.
    To me, that's not clear at all. First it says "Contains no nudity. Must be free of nudity or partial nudity." but then goes on to say "Non-detailed drawings of nudity (e.g. cartoons, animals, aliens, characters, etc.) is permissible. However, no appearances of genitalia, implied or otherwise." but what defines cartoons, people can argue that any anthro character is cartoony and draw big honking boobs on it without nipples and put it in the General rating, when to me that's not acceptable. To me cartoony is more the cutesy stuff like bugs bunny and sylvester. But to many people, that would be fine. I'm not sure what "characters" is supposed to mean, whether that's character sheets of anthros without any clothes on to show markings?

    So I understand that the ratings have been detailed, but they're still not 100% clear and I'm just seeing so much mis-use of the general ratings category. I've been reporting, because honestly, using the ratings wrong really annoys me I haven't received a reply or remembered what art I've reported to be able to go back and check whether anything was done about it... but maybe I'll have to keep tabs on any more that I do.

  7. #27
    Regular Aster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenith View Post
    I think that it might help to compile some picture examples in the rating guide, and link it directly on the submission page as well. [...]

    (and thank you Aster for getting my point across better, I wish I was better at saying what I mean clearly -_-;; ).
    The problems with using pictures is that the Rating Guide would then be 18+ if it was giving examples of those things. Perhaps they could be used as demonstrations for General art, or maybe a "click here for examples" sort of thing. The best way to do it would probably just be to clear up the wording of the page and make the guide easier to access. I like the idea of having it directly linked to the submission page though. Maybe, have little tooltips that would display the criteria when clicked, or have the "definition" of the selected rating show up underneath/above/near the selection.

    And, uhh, you're welcome; good to know my random ramblings hit at least one good note. I'm not usually good at saying things "clearly".

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerane View Post
    But what defines cartoons, people can argue that any anthro character is cartoony and draw big honking boobs on it without nipples and put it in the General rating, when to me that's not acceptable. To me cartoony is more the cutesy stuff like bugs bunny and sylvester. But to many people, that would be fine. I'm not sure what "characters" is supposed to mean, whether that's character sheets of anthros without any clothes on to show markings?

    So I understand that the ratings have been detailed, but they're still not 100% clear and I'm just seeing so much mis-use of the general ratings category. I've been reporting, because honestly, using the ratings wrong really annoys me I haven't received a reply or remembered what art I've reported to be able to go back and check whether anything was done about it... but maybe I'll have to keep tabs on any more that I do.
    Yes, the ratings system is not very clear, and as I mentioned, I believe that's one of the main problems with mis-rated submissions. The guide is fairly hard to follow as it's filled with statements that follow complicated logic ("Can't contain X or Y, unless A"). However, once you dig through all of that, it is specific enough that you should, in theory, be able to judge nearly any piece of art using it. It's just not easy.

    And while Bugs Bunny and Sylvester are cutesy, there are still characters like Jessica Rabbit who manage to be questionably child-friendly, big honkin' boobs and all.

    But I agree, it shouldn't be acceptable to submit a piece of art to General that is obviously an Adult piece sans nipples. That is the sort of stuff that would go in Moderate (suggestive, not explicit), from what I make of the Rating Guide.

    I am starting to think this should be a separate thread...

    (And yeah, I think I saw a staff member post about how they're looking into revamping the report system, to allow you to better track your reports or something. I'm not 100% sure about that though)
    Last edited by Aster; 01-27-2014 at 05:00 AM.
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  8. #28
    Honestly I think it'd just over complicate things. I mean what practical use does it serve?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Reshy View Post
    Honestly I think it'd just over complicate things. I mean what practical use does it serve?
    The OP outlined that pretty well, making it easier for people to find things they want. And making it easier to keep people who don't want to see those things from seeing those things.

  10. #30
    Junior FancyOwls's Avatar
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    I'm not sure I understand the "people will find this too complicated" crowd. Most sites use this system. Even DA uses this system, and DA attracts some of the most internet illiterate and inept people on the planet. Do you find selecting a box too complicated?

    Hoping people will add the hand-written tags for these is just not going to happen. I'm not going to sit at my computer with a thesaurus and try to write out everything I think people might try to filter. If we're following the "people will screw it up so lets not implement it" train, this is much easier for people to screw up, even if they're trying not to. There are no standards for hand tagging. Having a system that tags shit for you with site-wide universal tags is a better system. Having only 4 options for your rating system (general, moderate, mature, explicit) doesn't really allow people who are, say, afraid of nipples to continue looking at violent images or read comics with strong language. If they filter out mature, they loose it all. A lot of people want to browse at General, but they also don't want to exulde pictures with artistic nudity, which automatically become Mature if a female nipple is involved and they would no longer get to see if browsing at General.

    If people are going to mislabel the additional options, they're the kind of people who are already mislabeling their work. I don't think "well some people might screw it up" is a valid reason not to have something that most people will find useful and functional, especially when this system has proven to work in similar (and dumber) environments.

 

 

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