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  1. #51
    Senior PapayaShark's Avatar
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    *you is referring to everyone*

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasune View Post
    Take a deep breath, get off the computer, have a snack or something. If this debate has riled you up then maybe it's not for you. I'm not attacking you or condemning you, but it may be a better idea to step back if you feel that way before things get out of hand with others in the thread.
    It has nothing to do with this. I just often get moments where I get really shaky, so I have a hard time typing things.

    That rarely ever works. Some jerks will track you down to continue what they do, even if you try to change your username. Some are really that desperate and vindictive.
    It can work very well depending on what site you use. If you change from FA to DA, maybe not so much. But if you use less popular sites or sites with different themes it should work pretty well.

    You can, but what if they continue to make accounts to harass you? What are you going to do then? If someone made 50+ accounts to keep harassing you even after you blocked every one, you begin to think you don't want to put up with it and there isn't a point in continuing to do so.
    You can contact the admins/site owners/etc and get a ip ban on them.
    This is good advice, but some people will go out of their way to track down your info even if you don't give it out. Which probably isn't cyberbullying then, it turns into stalking at that point. Still, though. Just because you don't give it out doesn't mean you're any less prone to receiving those types of messages.
    If you don't post your mail anywhere or if you don't have it on our profile or stuff like that, there is no way people can find it unless they don't hack the site. Which I doubt anyone will do, unless they are addicted to find out information about you.. Then I would probably would talk to the authorities in my country. Or if your personal mail is the same as your username, which is a bit stupid.

    This is true. But it's very possible that cyberstalking STEMS from cyberbullying. I only say this from experience though.
    If something like that happens, I would suggest talking with the authorities in your state/country as stalking is a pretty serious issue.
    In Norway we have a site called "slettmeg.no" (deleteme.no) where you can ask questions and get advise about stuff like this. English users can also use the site (just click on english in the upper right corner). Maybe this will help any of you.

  2. #52
    Senior Kasune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapayaShark View Post
    You can contact the admins/site owners/etc and get a ip ban on them.
    All I have to say to this is... this is no longer effective. Proxies exist. In my situation the user attacking me used MANY proxies to get around IP bans. :/

    I've pretty much made my point otherwise.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by PapayaShark View Post
    I can't give a long answer as I'm shhaking really bad right now.
    I pegged you for a jerk because some of your posts seemed really insensitive, but if you are really that bothered about my response, I'm sorry. I never want to upset people that badly and I have been that upset before. You've obviously been hurt very badly in your life, and I really would like to extend my apology. I don't want to turn into the kind of person that I hate, please, accept my apology.

    But I would like to point out that the only people I gave my email to were friends, and one of them basically gave it to someone I didn't like after they spammed her dA shouts with anti-gay hate and she wanted them to stop. The problem with leaving a forum and joining under a different name is that you lose a lot of friends, and if you post art of any kind, everyone is going to know it's you. Like I said, I warped my style as much as possible and deleted a bunch of my old accounts because of things that happened to me, and I lost a lot of people. (I was no angel, I had a terrible temper, and sometimes, it was hard to trust people or tell them from trolls. That made everything complicated.)

    There are always going to be people who don't think anyone should be attached to "internet people" in any fashion, but I flat-out disagree with that. My two best friends are people I know online who live across the country from me. Thinking on it now, having to disassociate with all the awesome people I talk to because of drama and BS would be too much. I do not like seeing other people have that problem, especially people who are less sure in their friendships than I am now.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by PapayaShark View Post
    It can work very well depending on what site you use. If you change from FA to DA, maybe not so much. But if you use less popular sites or sites with different themes it should work pretty well.
    In my specific instance, the places I went reflected my interests. Having to leave a fandom or scene and "find another one" is not that simple and that assumes that a person is only on the internet to post aimlessly on forums or in IRC. I can't speak for everyone but in my case, I wanted to find people of similar interests to me. Seeing as the first time I accomplished that was in 2005-2006, having my world shattered because a few groups of people didn't like me was pretty depressing. I couldn't just go somewhere else, not unless I wanted to stop being a fan of one thing and suddenly be a fan of another, which I didn't, since my heart wasn't in it. (Why should I have to make sacrifices because other people are being jerks anyway?)

    Quote Originally Posted by PapayaShark View Post
    You can contact the admins/site owners/etc and get a ip ban on them.
    That's assuming the admins like you. Some site admins will screw with you because they can get away with it. There are some really corrupt and horrible people managing internet forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by PapayaShark View Post
    If you don't post your mail anywhere or if you don't have it on our profile or stuff like that, there is no way people can find it unless they don't hack the site. Which I doubt anyone will do, unless they are addicted to find out information about you.. Then I would probably would talk to the authorities in my country. Or if your personal mail is the same as your username, which is a bit stupid.
    1: The police around here couldn't care less about "teenage drama" or whatever they're calling it today.

    2: As I have said numerous times, some people have given out my mail just so they'd be left alone. The only reason I gave it to anyone was so I could completely leave a community and still keep friends, but I guess I wasn't allowed to even do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by PapayaShark View Post
    If something like that happens, I would suggest talking with the authorities in your state/country as stalking is a pretty serious issue.
    In Norway we have a site called "slettmeg.no" (deleteme.no) where you can ask questions and get advise about stuff like this. English users can also use the site (just click on english in the upper right corner). Maybe this will help any of you.
    I don't know how the police operate in other countries, but here, you have to show proof you're being stalked.
    Last edited by Kazekai; 08-06-2012 at 08:33 PM.
    If you say "plz" because it's shorter than "please," I'll say "no" because it's shorter than "yes."

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasune View Post
    This is probably going to open up an entirely new can of worms when I say this, but people don't seem to realize it.

    Society teaches people to "suck it up and deal with bullies" instead of "don't bully." Cyber Bullying only RECENTLY became an issue in my state because a girl committed suicide for being harassed to an unfathomable level. When that was brought to light people at first thought it was "a joke." But then they got to see the other side of the coin- cyber bullying isn't always warranted. And to say that "well, maybe you should find out WHY they're bullying you" isn't a fair thing to say at all. Bullying doesn't necessarily root from choosing someone weak to pick on.

    In this thread I see folks saying always the VICTIM'S fault that they have traits about them that make them a target, even if those traits can't really be changed. It could be the way you look, the way you talk, where you live, anything. You can't win, even if you stand up for yourself. You just can't. You're a victim, the person chose you as their target, so it's YOUR fault. Does that really sound reasonable...?

    There are some people who genuinely act like drama-mongers and childish, and get bullied for a reason, but what about the innocent people who did absolutely nothing wrong and someone just has a personal vendetta against them? What if someone just decided on a whim, hey, I'm gonna make this person's online life hell? And it isn't always just "simple bullying."

    My stalker was at first a bully that could easily be ignored. So I brushed them off. I would block them and ignore them, and I didn't respond to them. They would be banned from sites. But because they didn't get a response and I kept going on with my life, not batting an eyelash at them, they became more desperate. My personal info was spread around, such as my name and address. Two of my accounts were hacked and my FRIENDS were harassed just for associating with me. They created multiple accounts to keep heckling me in an attempt to bother me. Absolutely NOTHING stopped them.

    I was followed around everywhere, threatened to be assaulted and violated, and told to kill myself on a daily basis. I couldn't open my message boxes without finding 20 sockpuppet account messages telling me to do horrible things or receiving threats because this person bent over backwards to remain anonymous while trying to get to me. I admit I was a snot in the past at times, but I never gave anyone reason to bully me or stalk/harass me in this kind of way.

    But it's my fault, right? Because I'm a victim. It's my fault for leaving social networking sites and not wanting to put up with being told to kill myself or that I deserved to be raped, daily. It's my fault for wanting peace and being able to do what I want on the internet without receiving a slew of hateful messages when I did nothing to warrant them.

    The "bullying is a part of human nature" is a shoddy excuse.

    Edit: By the way, I'm not asking for sympathy. I've done all I could to prevent myself from getting hurt by this person- I'm simply using my situation as an example.
    I don't want to lessen the value of your arguement any, but. This is about cyber bullying as a whole. Offline bully is another ballgame and needs to be taken case by case.

  5. #55
    Senior Kasune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinjo View Post
    I don't want to lessen the value of your arguement any, but. This is about cyber bullying as a whole. Offline bully is another ballgame and needs to be taken case by case.
    You completely missed the point of my post that you quoted. My situation WAS about online bullying. It was also about victim-blaming. Read it again, if you have to. I didn't see anything directly about real-life bullying in my post.

    I'm not attacking you, nor am I trying to- I'm trying to simply debate. But your short and unrelated responses make it seem like you aren't even taking the time to read the posts that some of us are writing. You're not even presenting counter-arguments, which is frustrating considering many of us took our time to explain our points as best as possible.

    And to say that "well, maybe you should find out WHY they're bullying you" isn't a fair thing to say at all.
    I was countering one of your statements with this- you said something along the lines of figuring out WHY Wuvvums was being bullied, as in they're the ones that need to change their behavior and their personality traits, not the person who bullied them.

    Again... that's victim blaming. The bullies are the people that need to change, because what they're doing to begin with is wrong.

    Yes, I AM aware there are some cases where the victims instigate the bullying they receive. Does it make the bullying right? No. Never. But in many situations, it's completely unwarranted and not instigated, yet somehow it's still the victim's fault. They're the ones required to change. That's not fair, and it's not right.
    That's the point you seem to be missing.
    Last edited by Kasune; 08-06-2012 at 10:09 PM.

  6. #56
    Senior PapayaShark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazekai View Post
    I pegged you for a jerk because some of your posts seemed really insensitive, but if you are really that bothered about my response, I'm sorry. I never want to upset people that badly and I have been that upset before. You've obviously been hurt very badly in your life, and I really would like to extend my apology. I don't want to turn into the kind of person that I hate, please, accept my apology.

    But I would like to point out that the only people I gave my email to were friends, and one of them basically gave it to someone I didn't like after they spammed her dA shouts with anti-gay hate and she wanted them to stop. The problem with leaving a forum and joining under a different name is that you lose a lot of friends, and if you post art of any kind, everyone is going to know it's you. Like I said, I warped my style as much as possible and deleted a bunch of my old accounts because of things that happened to me, and I lost a lot of people. (I was no angel, I had a terrible temper, and sometimes, it was hard to trust people or tell them from trolls. That made everything complicated.)

    There are always going to be people who don't think anyone should be attached to "internet people" in any fashion, but I flat-out disagree with that. My two best friends are people I know online who live across the country from me. Thinking on it now, having to disassociate with all the awesome people I talk to because of drama and BS would be too much. I do not like seeing other people have that problem, especially people who are less sure in their friendships than I am now.

    Edit:


    In my specific instance, the places I went reflected my interests. Having to leave a fandom or scene and "find another one" is not that simple and that assumes that a person is only on the internet to post aimlessly on forums or in IRC. I can't speak for everyone but in my case, I wanted to find people of similar interests to me. Seeing as the first time I accomplished that was in 2005-2006, having my world shattered because a few groups of people didn't like me was pretty depressing. I couldn't just go somewhere else, not unless I wanted to stop being a fan of one thing and suddenly be a fan of another, which I didn't, since my heart wasn't in it. (Why should I have to make sacrifices because other people are being jerks anyway?)



    That's assuming the admins like you. Some site admins will screw with you because they can get away with it. There are some really corrupt and horrible people managing internet forums.



    1: The police around here couldn't care less about "teenage drama" or whatever they're calling it today.

    2: As I have said numerous times, some people have given out my mail just so they'd be left alone. The only reason I gave it to anyone was so I could completely leave a community and still keep friends, but I guess I wasn't allowed to even do that.



    I don't know how the police operate in other countries, but here, you have to show proof you're being stalked.
    I wasn't bothered by your, or anyone. I just often get really shaky for a long time. I just wanted to say it in case my spelling as horrible or my answer was to short. And you don't need to apology, I wasn't hurt by anything you wrote.

    And it was really shady of your friend to give our mail away to the spammers. Even if people was bombarding her with hate, you don't do that. Real friends don't do that kind of shit, they help you. And on DA off all places :I
    Maybe you can give your friends a different email from what you normally use(but that doesn't work if they are spineless and give it away), If you decide to quit using a site.
    And yeah, I don't agree with the ones saying to never get close to internet people, but I always keep in mind that they aren't always who they claim to be.

    Couldn't you find maybe a smaller community, that is more hid away. I am on a lot of large forums and websites, but also on a a small with less than 50 active users that I can hide at when I have been to loud. And if the admins were shitty, I wouldn't bother continue using the website, even if I weren't harassed on it.

    And multiple screenshots containing all the evidence you need, shouldn't that be enough. I think it is here. But again, that only work if the harasser live in the same country as you.

    Sorry for any spelling mistakes, my keyboard wont let me push down certain buttons :\

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasune View Post
    You completely missed the point of my post that you quoted. My situation WAS about online bullying. It was also about victim-blaming. Read it again, if you have to. I didn't see anything directly about real-life bullying in my post.

    I'm not attacking you, nor am I trying to- I'm trying to simply debate. But your short and unrelated responses make it seem like you aren't even taking the time to read the posts that some of us are writing. You're not even presenting counter-arguments, which is frustrating considering many of us took our time to explain our points as best as possible.


    I was countering one of your statements with this- you said something along the lines of figuring out WHY Wuvvums was being bullied, as in they're the ones that need to change their behavior and their personality traits, not the person who bullied them.

    Again... that's victim blaming. The bullies are the people that need to change, because what they're doing to begin with is wrong.

    Yes, I AM aware there are some cases where the victims instigate the bullying they receive. Does it make the bullying right? No. Never. But in many situations, it's completely unwarranted and not instigated, yet somehow it's still the victim's fault. They're the ones required to change. That's not fair, and it's not right.
    That's the point you seem to be missing.
    I honestly skimmed through it.

    Seemed like the appropriate thing I should have done considering all your replies seem to just about discount everything I say by saying the same thing over and over. I'm essentially done with this topic. As I stated before, victims look for every reason to blame some one other than themselves.

    The kids I work with tell me it's their friends fault, their teachers or classmates. It's everyone's fault, but theirs.

  8. #58
    Senior Kasune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinjo View Post
    As I stated before, victims look for every reason to blame some one other than themselves.
    Missed the point yet again, probably because you didn't bother to read anything I said. If you can't look at all sides of a debate, don't debate.

    What you're saying is not fact, it's an opinion. It doesn't hold water. Would you really say it's a kid's fault for having crooked teeth and being the victim of bullying because of his appearance? That's something they can't even help. AGAIN, you are victim-blaming by saying that. This is being repeated to you because you're ignoring that specific point. People. Shouldn't. Bully. Period. It is not the victim's fault that someone doesn't have common courtesy to respect their boundaries and be polite to others. We learn this stuff in preschool.

    Not only that, but it seems to me that you're also making a general assumption/stereotype. You can't say that all victims find reason to blame everyone but themselves because you don't know every victim. A group of children that you work with at ONE job is not even a fraction of all bullying victims. I don't even know where you would get that idea.

    In addition: Not every bully victim is a child. It happens to teenagers and young adults too. Keep this in mind. We're not talking about that group of children you work with, we're talking about bullying victims as a whole.

    Victims of bullying are conditioned to hate themselves and beat themselves up because they're taught that it's never the bully's fault for being a horrible person and bullying them to begin with, it's the victim's fault for being a target against their own will! Woah!

    And you're only further contributing to this belief. You're teaching bullies, online AND offline, that it's okay to act that way and choose targets at random. They can get away with whatever the heck they want. That the victim will always be at fault for just... being themselves.

    Do you realize how backwards that is?

    I know I'm wasting my breath with you because you've made it clear you don't care about what I have to say. But I'm saying it anyway because I would like other people to see what I have to say. There are certain topics that I am passionate about, and this is one of them.
    Last edited by Kasune; 08-07-2012 at 01:07 AM.

  9. #59
    I'm sorry, Sinjo. I am not trying to invalidate the things you say, but I can't really stand by and nod my head to the notion that children, or anyone for that matter, deserve this. You are victim blaming and we're trying to point out why it is victim blaming from our personal experiences and what we see with others. We explained why some of the methods like standing up do not work. But I think most of all we haven't seen any explanation on why someone would bring bullying onto themselves other than being weak, and I can't take being weak as an argument.

    If anything I just don't get why we don't blame bullies, if anything they are technically breaking the "rules" society has laid out for being respectful and decent towards others. Why do we have rules like keep your hands to yourself? And not to push or shove? Or name calling? And not steal? And not destroy other's property? We try to at least have lessons and punishments based around the idea that these things are wrong to do and children should not do that. The thing is if we went down to the very basics of it it's been decided that at the very least bullies have done something that breaks the simple rules of how to treat other people. It may sound stupid and some people think it's okay to challenge the rules, but I'm just trying to say that there is something more wrong with "attacking" someone rather than being the someone that was attacked.

    It's not like any of these bully victims are holding up signs saying, "hurt me." No one wants to be bullied and we do try to make it stop. And we explained how, and it didn't work. We can't just magic them away by acting brave and standing up, or trying to ignore them, or stay out of their way. And we don't think you're getting this because by blaming victims you are implying that bullying is basically deserved.

    I just wanted to mostly talk about how come some of us get into drama, and how we can try and change the opinions we form on other people so that we are less likely to simply hate them from being different than us, and how we might bully people because we thought they were bad people anyways. For the people I did bully and hurt, there is no one to blame but myself. Even if they did things I disagree with, it was wrong. People seem to either bully or justify bullying at least under the pretenses that they are right about something, and while it's hard to admit you're wrong, sometimes you got to try and change your attitude or try to think differently of the person to stop yourself from rationalizing the worst behaviors.

    Also.. I think this thread may be better off closed. I don't really see this going anywhere but in circles, no offense to you guys. I think sometimes threads get caught in a limbo where it's the same 3 or 4 people going for it.
    Last edited by Wuvvums; 08-07-2012 at 10:24 AM.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasune View Post
    Missed the point yet again, probably because you didn't bother to read anything I said. If you can't look at all sides of a debate, don't debate.

    What you're saying is not fact, it's an opinion. It doesn't hold water. Would you really say it's a kid's fault for having crooked teeth and being the victim of bullying because of his appearance? That's something they can't even help. AGAIN, you are victim-blaming by saying that. This is being repeated to you because you're ignoring that specific point. People. Shouldn't. Bully. Period. It is not the victim's fault that someone doesn't have common courtesy to respect their boundaries and be polite to others. We learn this stuff in preschool.

    Not only that, but it seems to me that you're also making a general assumption/stereotype. You can't say that all victims find reason to blame everyone but themselves because you don't know every victim. A group of children that you work with at ONE job is not even a fraction of all bullying victims. I don't even know where you would get that idea.

    In addition: Not every bully victim is a child. It happens to teenagers and young adults too. Keep this in mind. We're not talking about that group of children you work with, we're talking about bullying victims as a whole.

    Victims of bullying are conditioned to hate themselves and beat themselves up because they're taught that it's never the bully's fault for being a horrible person and bullying them to begin with, it's the victim's fault for being a target against their own will! Woah!

    And you're only further contributing to this belief. You're teaching bullies, online AND offline, that it's okay to act that way and choose targets at random. They can get away with whatever the heck they want. That the victim will always be at fault for just... being themselves.

    Do you realize how backwards that is?

    I know I'm wasting my breath with you because you've made it clear you don't care about what I have to say. But I'm saying it anyway because I would like other people to see what I have to say. There are certain topics that I am passionate about, and this is one of them.
    Again. Why should I read through the entirety of your post if you aren't going to do the same.

    I will re-state this once more for both you and wuvvums.

    I am not just blaming the victim. Bullies do need punishment as well, they do need to be dealt with. But much like victims, you two are only blaming the bully. Not once have you mention that you could have done something different, could have done something. Both me and Papaya have mentioned we were bullied and yet you both just seem to go " Oh, ok, cool. WEll I was bullied and that means more than you being bullied." As your your experiences should weigh harder than ours, because our opinion doesn't line up with yours.

    I haven't said anything up until now because I didn't want to be -that- guy. But seriously. You state your experiences as why your argument is valid, but turn around and say this when it's some one else's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasune View Post
    I am very sorry that happened to you, I really am.
    But you shouldn't compare situations with others. It's not only rude, but invalidating of others' feelings.
    Yeah you can't be hurt physically online, but you can be hurt emotionally and mentally. People get sexually harassed online, too.

 

 

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