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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Collection Limitation

  1. #1

    Collection Limitation

    So I tried out the collections feature as I was curious how it all worked, and suspected a problem which it confirmed.

    Basically it's just like an extra favorites folder. Just a link to the actual submission and nothing else.

    The biggest problem is you can't write a description for the image. So if I commission a picture of a character and I want to post it and explain who they are, what story they came from, explain stuff, that sort of thing, I can't.

    I'm not going to be happy with just linking to an artists page that says "a commish" and nothing else.

    I'd still want to upload all my commissioned art, even if other artists upload it for that reason alone.

    One nice feature to add would be notifications if a collection image gets a comment. Not sure if that's added yet or not.

    It's a complicated issue though. I can see as an artist wanting to keep it the way it is to collect all the comments/favs from it.

  2. #2
    Appaloosa Horsegirl GingerM's Avatar
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    There was another thread raised on the subject of collections, but I can't find it now, so I'll re-post as best as I can remember:

    What I would like to see is that when the artist sends it to someone (or several someones) as a collection item, the recipient has the ability to ADD to (no modify!) the artist's description, so they can, as you suggest, add some character info, back story to the image, whatever it may be. However, that added description should appear ONLY when viewing the item in the person's collections. If you go to the artist's gallery to look at it, you should see just their description.

    Like this:

    artist posts art with description foo

    artist offers it to commissioner and friend.

    commissioner accepts collection item and adds bar to description; cannot modify original foo.

    user looks at art in commissioner's collection; the total description is foo bar.

    user looks at art in artist's gallery; the total description is foo only; commissioner's description bar is not seen.

    Does this make sense? To take it further, let's now say that later on, artist (who owns art, after all) decides to offer it as a collection item to their friend friend. friend accepts the collection item and adds pthud to description foo. Again, they cannot modify the original description foo.

    When friend or anyone visiting the collection portion of friend's gallery looks at art now, they would see description foo pthud. If they looked at the piece in artist's gallery, they would see simply foo. if they looked at it in the collection portion of commissioner's gallery, the description there would still be foo bar.

    At all times, the only people who could alter descriptions would be the people who posted them.
    Last edited by GingerM; 11-03-2012 at 12:02 AM.
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  3. #3
    Premium User Temrin's Avatar

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    Mainly @GingerM but also some stuff about the OP's post : )

    Hmm, i believe the point was (of collections) to have it linking back to the artist because its that artists art. (having a different description per each one -depending on whos page you are looking at it from- is a bit redundant. imo anyways.) I think the artists should be getting the faves and whatnot. (and possibly the faves adding to the collection owner as well if you want to take it that far) As for comments though, Its been suggested a few times in the past that the comments should notify both the artist and those who's collection item it is because it could be about the art or it could be about the characters or commissioner, when someone comments right? So the commissioner would get notified and so would the artist so they can comment back about comments that pertain to either of them. (so i do hope they implement that because that would be nice.)

    But i dont think having a different description depending on where you see it would be suitable. (lots of extra cod to DB query if its coming from what page and then dictating how and which info to show, etc.)

    But having the notifications going to both the artist and the collector would be awesome (with a section to have the artists description, and an extra section for the collector to add to but as you said, not modify the original artists description.)

    eh my two cents anyways.

  4. #4
    I generally have a problem with collections, from a logistical standpoint. It creates extra work in the hands of the commissioner, should an artist decide to clean up the gallery, remove old pictures or go full nuclear and delete all art. All of the followers of the original picture must now re-follow the second image as posted by the commissioner. This means that comments and credit must be provided, and it's just.. well, it's a mess.

    While an artist does have the right to display work, generally speaking, artists extend this right to reposting of works for personal display. In this case, Weasyl actually interferes with a commissioner's right to post said work. While it defaults to the artist, it is generally accepted that commissioners get the ability to redisplay works created. There are some issues:

    - What do you do if you and the artist do not get along any further and are no longer on speaking terms?
    - What do you do if the artist gave you permission prior to this tiff and now chooses to -lie-?
    - What happens when an artist cries and vanishes -and- your HD dies? (This has happened to me IRL)

    I understand that Weasyl is a gallery, but Weasyl is also going to be using ad revenue and pay-for services to support it. At this point, as someone who is not an artist, I am seeing very little reason to join this site, aside from popularity. which bothers me. I really wish that the admin would consider the above points and make Collections as every bit in depth as a first-hand gallery (or replacing the main gallery), and provide a more robust toolset for users, out of respect for those who help keep this medium alive.

    Without commissioners, there'd be far, far less furry artists.

  5. #5
    Premium User taasla's Avatar
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    Your points are ethical points, Khorax.

    A good artist who runs their business fairly understands that business is business. When my clients agree to my contract, it states that they have the right to repost. The only way they lose that right temporarily is if they alter my art in a way that is not allowed in their contract, and they regain the right to upload the original version.

    If I turn out to dislike someone, then they will never lose that right. Because it's a contract, not based on friendship.

    When it comes to deleting things because I am leaving, then that is my right as an artist. The client may reupload as they wish, but I am not a backup service. The onus is not on me to ensure you have copies of your work.

    As for the collection issue, I think an addition to the main image akin to DeviantART's critique feature would be really nice. When someone accepts something up for collection, you can tack on your version of the description beneath mine. I don't know my clients' characters. It would be really awesome for them to be able to add their own flair onto my own submission.

  6. #6
    GingerM, I see one problem with the foo and bar descriptions, and that is if a viewer looks at the artists and doesn't see bar, he will be confused trying to follow any comments made by people who saw a different description than they did. I assume the coding issues will kill this idea though, as interesting and useful as it is.

    Khorax, that's another good point. If an artist deleted their art or account, will I even know it? Or will I just have to notice that hey, there is something missing from my collections. Another reason I wouldn't want to use them.

    taasla, I think the point being made was that by being unable to upload an image if the artist is here, you are forced to rely on the artist not deleting the image. Worse, all the comments and discussions on that image will go away too, as well as everyoen who faved it. I can re-upload it but all those comments and favs will be gone. That for me would be the worst part, having a year or more of feedback vanish. People ragequit and mass delete galleries all the time, and sometimes clean out their gallery of old stuff on a regular basis. I'd rather not have to rely on an artist to keep my stuff up and online. They are fully within their right to quit or delete as they wish, but once art is shared then it becomes a problem when it's deleted.

  7. #7
    Premium User taasla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonTalon View Post
    taasla, I think the point being made was that by being unable to upload an image if the artist is here, you are forced to rely on the artist not deleting the image.
    I'm pretty sure the site doesn't keep you from uploading work if the artist is already here. The site encourages users to receive the item from the artist first and foremost, but they may upload it otherwise. Unless they clarified this since the last time I read the rules and I've missed it?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by taasla View Post
    I'm pretty sure the site doesn't keep you from uploading work if the artist is already here. The site encourages users to receive the item from the artist first and foremost, but they may upload it otherwise. Unless they clarified this since the last time I read the rules and I've missed it?
    From https://www.weasyl.com/help/collections ...

    Although we have this system, users are still allowed to upload pieces made for them/that include them, as long as one of three conditions are met:
    1. The upload in question that was made for you is personal, and you wish to set friends-only permissions to it
    2. The original creator does not want to put it in their gallery
    3. The person who made your upload does not have a Weasyl account, although we strongly encourage our users to invite those artists who made works for them to the site. If they decline the invite, then go ahead and proceed!


    If the art is uploaded by the artist you can't post it yourself. Not sure if you upload art before they come here if you have to take it down when they upload it, but a strict reading of the rules would indicate that. Means any comments/favs would go away there too.

    Collections is a great idea but I think needs a bit of work. That's the nature of Beta testing, to find broken features and fix them, or verify that it's working as intended.

    Clarifying what happens if an artist comes here and uploads art after you did would be great though. For artists with 100's of submissions I can see them not wanting to upload it at all, but if they do decide to do that later it would be annoying to have a bunch of submissions deleted. Do I need to delete art I uploaded before an artist was here? Or if they are here, don't want to post some art and later change their mind and upload it?

  9. #9
    It's that rule, solely, that is preventing me from fully supporting the site. It's asking to inconvenience a large portion of the user base to save on bandwidth. Look at FA. How many people on FA submit unique pieces of art versus following others that do. Having a place to post your own commissioned work is vital. I understand that the site is not a back-up service. It's a gallery, but galleries aren't always sponsored by the artists who drew the pictures. Sometimes, they are based on subject matter.

    I have to ask then, with this rule, what's the point in me, as a commissioner, having an account here. I have fewer rights to display and promote artwork that I have paid for, which often uses my intellectual property. This is why you often see 'Character belongs to X'. The character is mine, and a creative work as a result. Should I hand-write a description of the characters, I can have that on my page.. and that's it. The rest -must- go into collections, excepting a lack of the work on the site.

    There are a lot of problems that this creates, as the bulk of financial gain by artists -are- people who love to proudly display the works they provide. Fan-attentions aside, it could cause problems with convincing people that this is a good site for the non-artist.. which is a fairly sizeable portion of people who would use sites.. such as this.

  10.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #10
    Senior Ben's Avatar
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    You can upload your commissions if you want. We won't be enforcing any sort of rules regarding the Collections system until we can actually improve it.

 

 

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