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  1. #21
    Junior Mewtwolover's Avatar
    Weasyl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly View Post
    if MAC address blocking is possible, that might work slightly better.
    That isn't possible because MAC addresses aren't visible to WAN(Internet). They're visible only in LAN's.

    IMO advanced blocking isn't needed. It will cause problems because it can be abused in so many ways.
    Last edited by Mewtwolover; 10-21-2012 at 05:15 PM.

  2. #22
    @ TotSchrei

    “My only problem with advance blocking not able to see profiles or things is what if someone is stealing your artwork and want to use the report button?” – To my understanding, Weasyl only prevents blocked people from being able to watch the blocker though the site (but wouldn’t stop them from seeing the blocker’s stuff anyways). However I brought up “preventing from seeing blockers page” because it was something brought up on FA and is used on some other sites. I’m not sure if Weasyl also does this or if it was something the site would consider implementing in the future. This is something that, although meant well too, is not effective either and will also cause new problems in its place.

    I have actually had this problem on other sites where someone didn't like me for some reason and would block me. then turn around and use my artwork without permission and claim as their own. – I think this is yet another example of dishonest, immature people abusing the block system for the wrong reasons. The more features implemented for privacy against blocked people, the more dishonest people (art thieves and dishonorable commissioners) will take advantage of it and make it easier for them as well.

    I’m sure reporting someone won’t be an issue as long as you’re aware of it and can see it (even if you can’t click the little report button) I imagine you could simply contact an admin directly and show them what you can (admins shouldn’t be blocked). However, it’s a matter of you being aware of it, and again, the more “privacy” we give to blocking, the more it will be used by dishonest people too. :\

    In fact, I have a bad feeling the “friends only” feature will also be used for dishonest reasons too (art theft mainly) which will make it more difficult to find them and report them. So I can see your concern with that even if they don’t implement “preventing from seeing one’s page”. : (

    - - - Updated - - -

    @Roki

    Maybe a better solution would be not disabling the ability to view a profile, but disabling the ability to communicate at all, favorite, and view things that are purely personal like the friend's list?

    Disabling all communication – Agreed. This should be in place.

    Disabling ability to favorite blocker’s stuff – Well, this can work too. I was suggesting disabling notifications (messages telling you the blocked person faved something of yours & the blocked person has watched you), however I don’t see anything wrong with preventing faving so that can work too. Weasyl would still need to disable the notification of being watched by the blocked person so that harassers can’t spam you by watching/unwatching (not that this has happened numerous times as I only heard one case of this, but I’m thinking ahead for your side on this).

    View things that are purely personal like the friend's list? – I imagine people wouldn’t put blocked people on their friends list anyway, but I think you mean some other sense of filtering like the friends list? Unfortunately I think this will still be abused with coercion though. I also think the friends list is going to make the community more cliquey by having this and TotSchrei brought up art thieves which I think will LOVE that feature (not that it will make them safe per say, but it will make things much easier for them now). So I think the friends only submissions isn’t a good idea either, but I’m not as alarmed about it as I am “can’t watch/can’t see page” type of blocking which I think can be abused FAR, FAR more for the wrong reasons.

    “I would still like to be able to block some users from seeing my work personally” – I imagine the friends only submissions will still be implemented despite the potential problems with it that I mentioned above. Since it probably will, this is your best bet to preventing someone from seeing stuff you don’t want them to see. Blocked people can’t use the methods I mentioned earlier to get around “can’t watch/can’t see your page” if you don’t friend them, so this feature is actually effective for preventing them from seeing your stuff. Of course this means you won’t be able to show this to everyone watching you that you don’t mind seeing the work unless you friend everyone watching you that you trust isn’t the harasser/stalker.

    Believe me, I’m not trying to be the bad guy and prevent you guys from having stuff you guys want. I really do wish there was something that was effective against genuine harassers/stalkers WITHOUT affecting innocent people. I’m just trying to suggest a fair balance for the two side’s concerns and what works best for everyone overall.

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    @MewTwoLover

    That isn't possible because MAC addresses aren't visible to WAN(Internet). They're visible only in LAN's. - Huh, I didn't know that, but I guess that's another reason why that idea won't work either.

    Thank you for understanding though and voicing your opinion. I'm concerned that if not enough people speak up, this issue will not be taken into consideration at all. :\
    Last edited by Thefallenwind; 10-21-2012 at 05:57 PM.

  3. #23
    I personally love the idea of advanced blocking. It's better to have the option than not have the option at all. Yes somebody can just log out, or just make accounts, but not everybody is going to be that persistent. In fact, its more pointless to REMOVE the option than to have it.
    There are some people whom it bothers that somebody they don't want seeing their art can continue to see it. There are multiple reasons for that.
    However if somebody wants to 'abuse' the system, it is their right to block whoever they want for whatever reason. I see it more as UNFAIR to force somebody to deal with somebody they dont want to. Regardless.

  4. #24
    Premium User Unburnt Daenerys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tartii View Post
    However if somebody wants to 'abuse' the system, it is their right to block whoever they want for whatever reason. I see it more as UNFAIR to force somebody to deal with somebody they dont want to. Regardless.
    This. I don't understand why it should be the mods' concern as to why someone is blocked. I have an Inkbunny account, and I've used their advanced blocking feature to block people for not tagging/rating their art correctly to mass dumping artwork for hours on end. On FurAffinity, most of my block list is comprised of the more unsavory types featured on Artists_Beware, even though I've never had personal contact with any of them.

  5. #25
    @Tarti

    In fact, its more pointless to REMOVE the option than to have it. – I just explained (with reasoning mentioned) it’s not more effective than basic blocking and will create new problems instead. How is it more pointless to aim for something that is more balanced for the concerns of both sides that also helps prevent abuse of it than to having something that isn’t better but will screw over innocent people?

    “There are some people whom it bothers that somebody they don't want seeing their art can continue to see it.” Right, I understand that. But again, I already mentioned that they will still see your art even if you block them. Again, advanced blocking is not more effective then basic blocking (so there’s no actual benefit despite people thinking there is), and now this feature can be used for the wrong reasons. Why implement something that is only detrimental?

    “I see it more as UNFAIR to force somebody to deal with somebody they dont want to.” Look Tarti, I’m not trying to spite you guys or argue for the opposite extreme here. I understand you guys have a problem with legitimate harassers/stalkers and that something should be in place. However, I’m trying to make it clear that the reasoning for why you guys want advanced blocking doesn’t work like you guys think it will and will create new problems for people. So why implement something that doesn’t work and will be abused far more than basic blocking?

    I’m not trying to be the bad guy here (I already expect people will see me as the devil despite my intent), I’m trying to propose something that is as fair and balanced as possible WITHOUT creating new problems. If you guys wanted advanced blocking and the only issue was it doesn’t work, then I wouldn’t care so much. But when it doesn’t work AND will be abused by affecting others negatively, then I have a problem with it now. Again, I understand you guys probably had to deal with real douchebags who are legitimately wrong and deserve a blocking, so something does need to be in place. But if we keep implementing more and more things to stop legitimate cases it’s also going to be used on innocents as well so again, I’m trying to propose what would work best, not spite you guys. I hope you understand that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    @ Lemontrees

    I have an Inkbunny account, and I've used their advanced blocking feature to block people for not tagging/rating their art correctly to mass dumping artwork for hours on end. On FurAffinity, most of my block list is comprised of the more unsavory types featured on Artists_Beware, even though I've never had personal contact with any of them. - ok, so with basic blocking they can't communicate but can still see your art. Not the intention of what the block system is supposed to be for, but I bet most innocent people aren't concerned with being to able to communicate with people when they've been blocked by as long as they can still see the artwork that's posted to a public gallery.

    But when it gets to stopping people from seeing their artwork, in this case innocent people who haven't done anything wrong at all, that's what the concern is. For the sake of understanding the other side, imagine if people whose artwork you really love decide to block you for no legitimate reason and now you can't see their artwork without having to use the methods I mentioned in my first post. Is it the end of the world? No. Can you still see their artwork? Yes, but now it's far more of a hassle and will add up with each new person who blocks you for reasons that weren't legitimate wrongdoing to them. How would you feel getting that middle finger (which may also keep stacking up) for no reason? And even if you decide "I wouldn't care!" (whether you actually do or not) I doubt many others who this would affect would feel the same, especially since others insist on something that isn't beneficial to them and screws over people like you if you were on the side getting screwed over.

    Again, I’m just trying to propose a fair balance for both sides, especially since advanced blocking won’t work like people think it will and will screw over others (even if it doesn’t actually affect you personally).
    Last edited by Thefallenwind; 10-21-2012 at 07:12 PM.

  6. #26
    Premium User Unburnt Daenerys's Avatar
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    How would you feel getting that middle finger (which may also keep stacking up) for no reason?
    Think "what an asswipe!" and move on. Wouldn't be the first time, and I wouldn't want to support anyone with such an attitude anyway.

    Honestly I'd rather have the more extensive blocking feature knowing that some people will be blocked "unjustly" than a half-asses blocking system like FA or DA.

  7. #27
    @Lemontrees

    "Think "what an asswipe!" and move on. Wouldn't be the first time, and I wouldn't want to support anyone with such an attitude anyway." - If I was a jerk, I could throw a similar argument right back at the other side saying "stop being so sensitive" or "just deal with it" regarding people being harassed or stalked who want an advanced block system. I didn't however because I wouldn't invalidate the other side's concerns. I've never needed to use the block system myself, I don't have people harassing me or stalking me but that doesn't mean there aren't others who are and despite it not being an issue to me, I acknowledge the other sides concerns and tried to propose a fair a balance.

    Honestly I'd rather have the more extensive blocking feature knowing that some people will be blocked "unjustly" than a half-asses blocking system like FA or DA. - So basically if the reasoning for wanting advanced blocking is to stop people from seeing your art (which won't work since it's incredibly easy to get around for stalkers/harassers who won't care about abandoning an old account to make a new one) you still want something that won't benefit you but will screw over others? You don't care about the other side at all then and simply want what you want alone? Is that what you're getting at?

  8. #28
    Oh! No I am not angry with you, nor do I see your posting as spite, but what I am pondering is...have you had issues with this in the past that has brought this up?

    Look, if somebody wants to block somebody, even if they really have 'no cause to do so' it is their absolute choice. If somebody wanted to RANDOMLY block me, say, somebody who's artwork I heavily admired, and I had not spoken or asked anything of them? I would be very confused. BUT I would not see it as a cause to completely remove the feature....I fail to see how anything you have brought to attention is a reason to remove a feature that does more GOOD for the masses than bad.
    Will some people probably be blocked, and not know why? Maybe. But that person shouldn't have their WHOLE LIFE RUINED because they can't view this one artwork. Also, some people just do not know when they go to far, or when their attention is really not wanted. An artist should have the right to be able to block somebody completely, and not have to explain themselves. If somebody has angered them, if somebody has continued to harass, or what-not then they should have that right. Maybe it is just a teensy thing that shouldn't be insulted by...but they are, and deserve the right to block them if so. Again I see no reason this feature should be removed.

    If you are being blocked by SEVERAL people, and all are artists you like, and it keeps happening and 'stacks up' as you say...well then you probably are not innocent. You probably have done something wrong.

    Have you commissioned somebody, and they haven't gotten back to you or shown you the process of your artwork and blocked to avoid work? Well then you better have another contact for them outside the site. That is just smart thinking.

    You seem intent on saying that this benefits nobody, when really there ARE benefits. It is a block in the path of harassers. Is it a minor block that can be gotten around if somebody was determined? Yes. However, this block will discourage some of them at least.


    So, again, still don't see why this needs to be removed.

  9. #29
    Premium User Temrin's Avatar

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    I honestly suggest that when invites open, we let them at least test out their functions with the masses for now. If there are actually problems with it, then report those problems, with screenshots and proof of the problems actually recieved from this system.

    That way, they can actually see what people are doing legitimately when this system is used and then, can make proper changes to it. It might actually be a good system, or with a few tweaks it could work. But without seeing what people will -actually- do on -this- site (because its not every other site) then making changes right now actually might be a bad idea. The mods might have ideas for this system that might actually be decent that havent been implemented, you never know! Just give it a chance to be tested. If problems come up, report em and the mods will make tweaks as needed. Right now, i think there are a lot more important things to worry about then advanced blocking features. As long as right now, there IS a block function, itll work for the time being. Getting the other features working properly and the changes they are already committed to making, should come first

  10. #30
    @Tarti

    “Oh! No I am not angry with you, nor do I see your posting as spite” – My apologies, text does not always convey tone very well (or the way it was intended) and it seemed like there was a bit of hostility towards me which is why I was trying to explain I wasn’t trying to spite you guys as I understand your side too and was trying to come up with a fair balance. I’m glad that is cleared up though.

    Basic blocking stops all form of communication from people who are blocked. This is needed. Eliminating notifications from blocked people (blocked person has watched you! Or blocked person faved this!) is something that should be implemented too (Roki mentioned preventing blocked people from faving, this is fine too). All of this is necessary because of the problematic people who harass others and though it won’t always stop people it sure can slow them down at least. So far, I think everyone can agree this is something that is needed.

    Advanced blocking however (preventing people from watching you and possibly preventing them from seeing your page as well specifically) is something that is added to basic blocking. The reasoning for this is because people don’t want blocked people to watch or see them. I pointed out in my original post how incredibly easy it is to get around this for dedicated harassers/stalkers (which also have no problem abandoning accounts to make new ones) and that this feature is no better than basic blocking. If this was the only fault alone and people still wanted it, then I wouldn’t care so much.

    However, this now gives people the power to abuse this feature on people who they deem inferior or unworthy of watching them as well as sets up the table to use coercion on others (if you fav and don’t comment I will block you, etc. Do as I say or you won’t see my artwork). If this type of abuse was incredibly rare I probably wouldn’t have made this thread. Unfortunately, it’s not and there are a lot of immature, irresponsible, judgmental, narrow-minded people amongst the people who are decent people and would not abuse the blocking system.

    My argument is, advanced blocking does not do what people think it will do, is not better then basic blocking and will create new problems in it’s place.

    “ Look, if somebody wants to block somebody, even if they really have 'no cause to do so' it is their absolute choice.” – I don’t disagree with that completely, but at the same time let me put it this way. Imagine you live in the city and you’d like to use the bus to get somewhere. The bus driver closes the door and drives away right as you try to get in. Is it the end of the world? No. You can take a more expensive cab or walk to the several miles instead even the though the bus was much better for you.

    Now let’s say the busses keep doing this to you personally (as well as a small minority of others). One time was probably annoying, but whatever. Each time it happens and keeps stacking up though I bet it’s going to start getting to you.

    Is it the end of the world? No. Can you still get to where you wanted to go? Yes, but now it’s more inconvenient and annoying for you. Did you do anything wrong for the bus drivers to keep purposely doing this to you? (and keep in mind most people aren’t going to tell you why they really blocked you). Is it going to get increasingly annoying when this keeps happening over and over when you did nothing wrong at all? This is the point I’m making for this.

    If you are being blocked by SEVERAL people, and all are artists you like, and it keeps happening and 'stacks up' as you say...well then you probably are not innocent. You probably have done something wrong. That’s not always correct. On DA (I’m a lurker there, I don’t interact with others very much at all through that site) I’ve watched my watch count continuously decrease 1-3 watches every week or two. I’ve looked into it and noticed that 1/3 of them are deactivated accounts, the other 2/3 are people who blocked me either immediately after watching them or after some time. I have not said a single word to 99% of them, I only hit the watch button.

    This probably won’t affect people of your standing so much since you’re a well-known artist. But the lurkers and the people with porn/fetish stuff in their favorites/galleries are the ones who get affected by this more often due to being judged based on appearances. In addition (not that this has happened to me personally) I’ve also heard from a good number of people of who get blocked for POLITELY disagreeing with another. If blocking also means not being able to see one’s artwork then this may discourage others from saying anything even politely for fear of being blocked.

    Have you commissioned somebody, and they haven't gotten back to you or shown you the process of your artwork and blocked to avoid work? – Not personally, but it’s a common theme to hear about on Artist’s Beware.

    “…when really there ARE benefits” – what benefits? The only benefit people think it has is that they think people will not be able to see their artwork (in addition to preventing blocked accounts from viewing their page, if blocking page viewing is also implementing). I’ve explained how that aspect of this advanced blocking doesn’t actually work in my original post. Advanced blocking really is no more effective than basic blocking and is ripe for even more abuse than basic blocking is.

    My argument simplified is:

    Plan A solves all but 1 problem, but creates no new problems.
    Plan B solves all but 1 problem, but creates NEW problems in its place.

    People think that Plan B is going to solve all their problems. I’m trying to explain that it won’t and that plan B is more detrimental (even if others see the detriments towards others I’m explaining as minor or inferior to them personally). All I'm asking for is a balanced approach that can solve what can be solved WITHOUT creating problems for others.

    - - - Updated - - -

    @Temrin

    “we let them at least test out their functions with the masses for now. If there are actually problems with it, then report those problems, with screenshots and proof of the problems actually recieved from this system.” – This may be very difficult though since it’s very subjective. People can lie about why they blocked someone, and innocents are going to have a hard time finding evidence that they were blocked for the wrong reasons. On top of that, admins aren’t going to (nor shouldn’t) make rules on why you can block someone. I think it’s better to set up a system to do what good it can while reducing the amount of potential abuse that can come from it.

    However, despite the point I made in the paragraph above, the point you made about testing it out first, is at least the most sensible argument against mine and I acknowledge that. I can understand wanting to try something out for empirical evidence to ensure it really is the case, this I will bow to. I still think it will become a problem (mostly for people on my side) since it does happen a lot on others sites but I can’t blame you for wanting to take a scientific approach to this.

    I hope that if I'm right though, that the site owners will take that concern into fair consideration to make a more balanced block system.
    Last edited by Thefallenwind; 10-21-2012 at 10:03 PM.

 

 

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