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NovaCaine
07-21-2017, 04:37 PM
Hello everyone!

In today’s newspost, we have a big update, so grab your favorite egg and buckle in for some good stuff!

As stated in our previous site update, we’ve been working on the Community Guidelines (https://www.weasyl.com/policy/community) and Ratings Guidelines (https://www.weasyl.com/help/ratings)
As the site progresses, its rules and policies progress as well. This progression is based both on staff experiences and user feedback.
The changes are as follows:

Community Guidelines:


Existing item I.C.3 has been removed due to redundancy.

Existing item I.C.6 (now I.C.5) now includes character submissions and journals.

Existing item I.C.7 (now I.C.6) allows for generated content in character galleries (limited to one image per character).

New item I.C.7 has been added. This allows for artists to post reminders about auctions, YCH works, and raffles under certain conditions. One reminder per auction/sale every 24 hours is permitted, and will require a “reminder” tag. Uploading and deleting the same reminder over and over again will be considered a violation.

Category II.C has been reduced to two items instead of the previous four. If the content is wholly yours, the submission is acceptable, and if it uses content made by a source other than yourself, at least one of two conditions must be met.

Item II.D.2 addresses video game screenshots. In short, video game screenshots are no longer acceptable as submissions- however, you may use a screenshot as a character reference so long as it is uploaded through the Character Gallery feature.



Ratings Guidelines

The Moderate category no longer exists.
All submissions that were previously rated Moderate will now be in the General category, and the General category inherits the wording from the former Moderate category. The Mature and Explicit categories remain essentially the same, with a bit of wording changed to clarify some parts.

Lastly, we’ve changed the wording of the two Ratings Guidelines policies that didn’t quite fit in their own categories- they can be found as notes at the bottom of the Ratings page (https://www.weasyl.com/help/ratings).

And that wraps it up!
Please feel free to reach out to Weasyl staff if you’d like us to clarify any parts from either of the Guidelines pages, and if you’d like to have an in-depth discussion with staff and users alike feel to discuss them in this thread.

Badgefox
07-21-2017, 04:45 PM
I didn't bring an egg ,_,

fulgens
07-21-2017, 05:58 PM
So now there is going to be a lot of weird sexualized stuff in the General category?

Tiger
07-21-2017, 06:47 PM
So now there is going to be a lot of weird sexualized stuff in the General category?

Not quite. The General category will now only allow mild sexual themes. This could be things like dirty jokes, or more well-endowed characters or characters with larger bosoms. It will not allow for genitalia to be defined through clothing or directly exposed, and it will not allow graphic sexual content. If you come across any graphic sexual content in the General category, please use the report feature to file a ticket, and staff will re-rate the content accordingly.

We also have a blacklist system for tagging, so if there's content that is properly rated but you'd not like to see it at all, you can add a tag to your blacklist and the content will no longer be visible for you.

anubis_werewolf
07-21-2017, 07:50 PM
I don't understand this:
"Item I.C.7 allows for generated content in character galleries (limited to one image per character)."
What does it mean? We can only have one pic of one character in our gallery?

Tiger
07-21-2017, 08:01 PM
I don't understand this:
"Item I.C.7 allows for generated content in character galleries (limited to one image per character)."
What does it mean? We can only have one pic of one character in our gallery?

So Weasyl has a feature where every user has a separate gallery they can dedicate to their characters. Originally, the policy was such that completely disallowed any content that was made by a character generator- including the submissions in the character gallery. Staff looked back and realized that some users are using the character generators to show their character's design because they weren't able to create their own reference, and that the [now former] policy really wasn't fair. Now, in character galleries, if a user would like to use a character generator to create the reference image, that's perfectly fine, but each character is only allowed one generator-created image to display their design.

Hopefully that clears up any questions! Let us know if you'd like more clarification.

fulgens
07-21-2017, 08:02 PM
"Sexualized or erotic fashion is permissible as long as it does not meet the criteria for Explicit."

Shouldn't that say Mature?

anubis_werewolf
07-21-2017, 08:06 PM
So Weasyl has a feature where every user has a separate gallery they can dedicate to their characters. Originally, the policy was such that completely disallowed any content that was made by a character generator- including the submissions in the character gallery. Staff looked back and realized that some users are using the character generators to show their character's design because they weren't able to create their own reference, and that the [now former] policy really wasn't fair. Now, in character galleries, if a user would like to use a character generator to create the reference image, that's perfectly fine, but each character is only allowed one generator-created image to display their design.

Hopefully that clears up any questions! Let us know if you'd like more clarification.


No, it doesn't answer anything actually.
What does this have to do with my question?
I have ALL my characters in my Character gallery. So I can only have one character in there now and only one pic of them? That's silly to have a whole separate gallery for only one image.

Tiger
07-21-2017, 08:44 PM
"Sexualized or erotic fashion is permissible as long as it does not meet the criteria for Explicit."

Shouldn't that say Mature?

That bit refers more to things like a ball gag and other types of sex toys/gear. It allows for characters to be depicted wearing things such as a rope harness without being grouped into the Explicit category, while characters wearing gear such as ball gags will not be placed in the General category.


No, it doesn't answer anything actually.
What does this have to do with my question?
I have ALL my characters in my Character gallery. So I can only have one character in there now and only one pic of them? That's silly to have a whole separate gallery for only one image.

You can have as many characters in your character gallery as you desire! However, if you intend to use a character generator to be used to display their design, each character is only allowed one character generator image. For example, I have a character that's a snow leopard, but let's say I'd like to use three different pictures to display his design. I can use one image created with a character generator and two images that I've drawn myself. It would be a violation, though, if I were to upload three images of the same character that were all created with a generator.

anubis_werewolf
07-21-2017, 09:07 PM
@Tiger
I still have no idea what you are talking about.

acelion
07-22-2017, 12:05 AM
@Tiger
I still have no idea what you are talking about.

Let's say you use a pony character generator to make a pony character.

There's your one. for the next pictures of your pony, you have to post only drawn pictures.

you can have all of your characters in your character gallery. there's no limit on that. but those characters also can't have more than one character creator picture.

So say you 1000 characters in your character gallery, you have...2000 pieces of those characters (2 pictures per), only 1000 of those pictures could be from say a pony generator, and the other one must be drawn but you can have as many pictures you wish.

I tried to clear that up, sorry if I didn't.

Frank LeRenard
07-22-2017, 04:39 AM
Yay!
Hopefully people are pleased with the eradication of the Moderate category. If I recall right, it was a fountain of confusion not just for users but for staff.

One thing:

Item I.C.8 has been added.
Has it? I don't see it here: https://www.weasyl.com/policy/community


@anubis, at the risk of causing further confusion....

When you go to submit something, you get five categories to choose from: Visual, Literary, Multimedia, Character, and Journal Entry. Just so we're on the same page, "Character" is what's being referred to here. It's used to post pictures and descriptions/stats of your characters simultaneously, so it's used as a reference page for a specific character. Don't necessarily need to use it, but it's handy. If you just wanted to upload images of your character (without statistics or backstory), you'd be better off uploading it as a "Visual" submission, for example.

Weasyl previously completely disallowed all images created by character-generation software, such as, say, this: http://generalzoi.deviantart.com/art/Pony-Creator-Full-Version-254295904

Didn't want people just clicking buttons and taking screenshots using someone else's software (and artwork!), because Weasyl is supposed to be more like an art gallery than a social media site. But the Character category is for reference, and not necessarily artistic merit. Some people can't draw and can't afford to commission artwork, but still want to create a reference page for their characters. So to be fair to those people, they get to use character generator software for that purpose.

It's limited to one generated image per Character submission, probably because character generators are by design easy to use and produce samey-looking artwork, so the site looks ugly if people spam that kind of thing in their galleries. Staff can correct me on that if that's wrong, of course.

So if you're not an artist and can't afford a commission, you can upload one "Character" submission made using generated artwork to create a reference for your character, and then any subsequent artwork of said character you want to upload has to be drawn by you or someone else and cannot be created using character generator software.


If this still doesn't make any sense, then maybe this rule change doesn't apply to you. I'm noticing in your gallery you have no "Character" uploads and seem to do all your own artwork anyway.

Furrhan
07-22-2017, 04:52 AM
My biggest problem with this is that the whole thing feels like a relaxation of the rules to me, especially with regards to the General category.

I still feel that the general category should not contain anything sexualised and should definitely not show drug use.

I mean, considering ratings for films and games, anything sexualised would straight away give a movie a PG-13 rating and any drug use excluding alcohol and tobacco pushes them straight into the M category.

Succinctly, I feel that the General category should be defined as "suitable for all ages", the "Moderate" appropriate for people ages 13+ or perhaps 15+ and "Explicit" then over 18.

I think a system like this would provide better protection for those who wish not to view adult content as well as being clearer both for those who are uploading content and those who are moderating the site. This clarity is especially important given the new similarity between the "Moderate" and "explicit" categories.

I also STRONGLY object to the use of the word "comedic" below:

May include incidental or comedic use of drugs such as marijuana, sativa, hallucinogens or prescription drugs.
As I said in the previous content ratings thread, drugs are a serious problem in today's society and I would prefer that younger viewers of the site not be desensitised to the danger they pose through their use being shown in the general category and especially through their use being portrayed or described as comedic or fun. Such description to me inherently downplays the danger and harm of drugs.

TLDR: I'd like to see sexual/fetish stuff and drug use removed from the general category, and drug use no longer described as "comedic" on the ratings page.

EDIT: I think the best thing to do, actually, would be to merge the "moderate" and "Mature" categories instead of the "general" and "moderate" categories. I think the way it is now basically defeats the purpose of having a "general" category at all.

anubis_werewolf
07-22-2017, 11:46 AM
Let's say you use a pony character generator to make a pony character.

There's your one. for the next pictures of your pony, you have to post only drawn pictures.

you can have all of your characters in your character gallery. there's no limit on that. but those characters also can't have more than one character creator picture.

So say you 1000 characters in your character gallery, you have...2000 pieces of those characters (2 pictures per), only 1000 of those pictures could be from say a pony generator, and the other one must be drawn but you can have as many pictures you wish.

I tried to clear that up, sorry if I didn't.

I'm not sure what the pony generator has to do with this, but okay.
Could a Mod or Admin take a look at my Character gallery and see if I'm breaking any rules with all the characters I have in there?

- - - Updated - - -


Yay!


@anubis, at the risk of causing further confusion....

When you go to submit something, you get five categories to choose from: Visual, Literary, Multimedia, Character, and Journal Entry. Just so we're on the same page, "Character" is what's being referred to here. It's used to post pictures and descriptions/stats of your characters simultaneously, so it's used as a reference page for a specific character. Don't necessarily need to use it, but it's handy. If you just wanted to upload images of your character (without statistics or backstory), you'd be better off uploading it as a "Visual" submission, for example.

Weasyl previously completely disallowed all images created by character-generation software, such as, say, this: http://generalzoi.deviantart.com/art/Pony-Creator-Full-Version-254295904

Didn't want people just clicking buttons and taking screenshots using someone else's software (and artwork!), because Weasyl is supposed to be more like an art gallery than a social media site. But the Character category is for reference, and not necessarily artistic merit. Some people can't draw and can't afford to commission artwork, but still want to create a reference page for their characters. So to be fair to those people, they get to use character generator software for that purpose.

It's limited to one generated image per Character submission, probably because character generators are by design easy to use and produce samey-looking artwork, so the site looks ugly if people spam that kind of thing in their galleries. Staff can correct me on that if that's wrong, of course.

So if you're not an artist and can't afford a commission, you can upload one "Character" submission made using generated artwork to create a reference for your character, and then any subsequent artwork of said character you want to upload has to be drawn by you or someone else and cannot be created using character generator software.


If this still doesn't make any sense, then maybe this rule change doesn't apply to you. I'm noticing in your gallery you have no "Character" uploads and seem to do all your own artwork anyway.

No Characters in that gallery? I submit a lot to my Characters gallery. I'm looking at them right now. There are dozens of them in there

vulpixdotus
07-22-2017, 01:04 PM
I'm not sure what the pony generator has to do with this, but okay.
Could a Mod or Admin take a look at my Character gallery and see if I'm breaking any rules with all the characters I have in there?

- - - Updated - - -



No Characters in that gallery? I submit a lot to my Characters gallery. I'm looking at them right now. There are dozens of them in there

You have a "Characters" folder, you don't actually have any Character submission types.

anubis_werewolf
07-22-2017, 01:46 PM
You have a "Characters" folder, you don't actually have any Character submission types.


Okay? I'm not sure what you mean. I have all my characters submitted under my Characters gallery.

vulpixdotus
07-22-2017, 01:51 PM
Okay? I'm not sure what you mean. I have all my characters submitted under my Characters gallery.

If you enter the submit menu in Weasyl, it should become a bit more clear. You see you have your Visual option, but you have the Character option as well. The new guidelines are referring to the Character option, but all of your submissions are of the Visual type. Therefore, by my interpretation, you should have nothing to worry about.

anubis_werewolf
07-22-2017, 01:56 PM
If you enter the submit menu in Weasyl, it should become a bit more clear. You see you have your Visual option, but you have the Character option as well. The new guidelines are referring to the Character option, but all of your submissions are of the Visual type. Therefore, by my interpretation, you should have nothing to worry about.

But when I submit my characters I'm putting them under Characters though.

Frank LeRenard
07-22-2017, 02:29 PM
But when I submit my characters I'm putting them under Characters though.

https://www.weasyl.com/characters/anubiswerewolf
"There are no characters to display."

You're using a folder you created for "Visual" type submissions that you called Characters: https://www.weasyl.com/submissions/anubiswerewolf?folderid=77756
POINT IS: I don't believe you have anything to worry about if you keep on as you were.

anubis_werewolf
07-22-2017, 02:51 PM
https://www.weasyl.com/characters/anubiswerewolf
"There are no characters to display."

You're using a folder you created for "Visual" type submissions that you called Characters: https://www.weasyl.com/submissions/anubiswerewolf?folderid=77756
POINT IS: I don't believe you have anything to worry about if you keep on as you were.

Yes, I put my Characters into Characters. So why does nothing show up in that gallery? It should be the same thing.

vulpixdotus
07-22-2017, 04:21 PM
Yes, I put my Characters into Characters. So why does nothing show up in that gallery? It should be the same thing.

Putting the *visual* submission into a folder called "Characters" does not make it a *character* submission.

anubis_werewolf
07-22-2017, 04:53 PM
Putting the *visual* submission into a folder called "Characters" does not make it a *character* submission.
What's the difference?

I don't think we are even talking about the same thing.
Thanks anyway. I'll just wait until an admin helps me, not that I expect to get an answer back.

acelion
07-22-2017, 08:04 PM
http://i.imgur.com/29E9WJk.png

See the one on the right? the one marked 'Characters' ? that's the ref sheet style thing. This is where you upload a full body picture or a headshot or something and then provide all of the information like it's a roleplaying sheet. this is NOT what you do; but it IS what the mods and the community guidelines are referencing. Thus, this is what they are saying. you can NOT post more than one generator style picture (like the pony generator used as an example above per character

what you are doing is placing all of the artwork of your characters into a folder marked characters. that is not the same thing as what they are saying thus, you are fine.

it really can not get any more simple than that.

anubis_werewolf
07-22-2017, 11:06 PM
http://i.imgur.com/29E9WJk.png

See the one on the right? the one marked 'Characters' ? that's the ref sheet style thing. This is where you upload a full body picture or a headshot or something and then provide all of the information like it's a roleplaying sheet. this is NOT what you do; but it IS what the mods and the community guidelines are referencing. Thus, this is what they are saying. you can NOT post more than one generator style picture (like the pony generator used as an example above per character

what you are doing is placing all of the artwork of your characters into a folder marked characters. that is not the same thing as what they are saying thus, you are fine.

it really can not get any more simple than that.

Sheesh Dude. Bite my head off. O_o
I said I'd just get an admin to help me, it's no big deal.
Thanks anyway.

acelion
07-22-2017, 11:23 PM
I didn't bite your head off, I put emphasis.

and there's nothing to help with. i explained it.

in fact, it's even easier to explain.

yes, you are putting the pictures of your characters under visualize. this is fine. you're doing that correctly. good job.

what the admins are talking about is creating a character. See up in the picture where it says "character--create a profile for an original character with an image from your computer" ? you're not doing that. so this doesn't even apply to you.

If you need help beyond that, then personally I don't even think an admin can help you.

anubis_werewolf
07-22-2017, 11:30 PM
I didn't bite your head off, I put emphasis.

and there's nothing to help with. i explained it.

in fact, it's even easier to explain.

yes, you are putting the pictures of your characters under visualize. this is fine. you're doing that correctly. good job.

what the admins are talking about is creating a character. See up in the picture where it says "character--create a profile for an original character with an image from your computer" ? you're not doing that. so this doesn't even apply to you.

If you need help beyond that, then personally I don't even think an admin can help you.

I don't understand what this Characters gallery that you are talking about is even for. It seems pointless.
I didn't understand what was going on, so I asked for help.
No need to be rude about it.

XoPachi
07-23-2017, 01:52 AM
This was the funniest three pages. lmao
"Rude" lol

But in all seriousness. Guys, you goofed on this. Kinda hard.
You don't honestly believe this belongs in General do you? https://www.weasyl.com/~xp/submissions/1495586/saki
Because that's exactly where it is now.

anubis_werewolf
07-23-2017, 02:19 AM
This was the funniest three pages. lmao
"Rude" lol


Nice to know my asking for help is considered "funny" -_-

I don't know why I even bother asking for help here.

Hendikins
07-23-2017, 02:37 AM
I said I'd just get an admin to help me, it's no big deal.

They're correct. Possibly a little terse, but correct nonetheless.

- - - Updated - - -


You don't honestly believe this belongs in General do you? https://www.weasyl.com/~xp/submissions/1495586/saki

It does when General is defined as "Not 18+", which is where we're at now. It's either adult material (sexually explicit or otherwise) or it's not.

This should also resolve one of the biggest problems we had with Moderate - people posting full blown nudity thinking it's okay for 13+.

- - - Updated - - -



One thing:

Has it? I don't see it here: https://www.weasyl.com/policy/community

Clerical error in the news post. I've tidied this up.

Furrhan
07-23-2017, 12:50 PM
It does when General is defined as "Not 18+", which is where we're at now. It's either adult material (sexually explicit or otherwise) or it's not.

This should also resolve one of the biggest problems we had with Moderate - people posting full blown nudity thinking it's okay for 13+.

True. I do like that full nudity is now considered 18+.
That said, why is drug use not 18+? Why are sexualised and erotic situations and fashion not considered 18+ regardless of whether or not actual nudity is present?
And why oh why is drug use described as comedic?

If you can clear that up and make General actually appropriate for younger audiences then I'll support the new guidelines.

fulgens
07-23-2017, 04:27 PM
Who on earth would put ball gags in the General category? Did you really just say that?

Tiger
07-23-2017, 05:52 PM
Who on earth would put ball gags in the General category? Did you really just say that?

Not sure if you were referring to my post on page one, however, ball gags absolutely are not acceptable in the General category:


That bit refers more to things like a ball gag and other types of sex toys/gear. It allows for characters to be depicted wearing things such as a rope harness without being grouped into the Explicit category, while characters wearing gear such as ball gags will not be placed in the General category.

anubis_werewolf
07-23-2017, 06:29 PM
They're correct. Possibly a little terse, but correct nonetheless.

Correct about what though?
I still have no idea what is going on or the use/point of this Characters gallery.
I feel like I'm just being messed with at this point, so forget it.
I'll deal with it myself, just like everything else here I've asked for help on.
I don't know why I even bother anymore.

fulgens
07-23-2017, 07:14 PM
Anubis, it's everyone else that's tiptoeing around you right now. These guys actually did practically all that they could to help you. Don't you have at least a little gratitude, for the guy that fancied up the screenshots for you just in order to "bite your head off?". Their responses were direct and to the point - if you consider that to be biting your head off, then how are you not offended by everybody all the time?


Not sure if you were referring to my post on page one, however, ball gags absolutely are not acceptable in the General category:

Sorry, my mistake. BTW, 4 pages is really not much here.

Furrhan
07-24-2017, 02:29 AM
Thanks for clarifying that, Tiger.
I think that could definitely be made more clear in the new guidelines though. I think the way it's worded currently is going to cause some confusion, as you've just seen.

And again, why is drug usage permissible in the General category?

AngrilyBruskHowls
07-26-2017, 10:36 PM
Is this some kinda joke?? Drug use, genital bulges, and giant breasts in the general category?? I can no longer link to this website on the main forum that I use because unlike your "General" category, it actually has standards and doesn't allow things that aren't safe for everyone.

Tiger
07-27-2017, 12:20 PM
Is this some kinda joke?? Drug use, genital bulges, and giant breasts in the general category?? I can no longer link to this website on the main forum that I use because unlike your "General" category, it actually has standards and doesn't allow things that aren't safe for everyone.

I think there is a bit of misunderstanding here.

- In regards to drugs in the General category, it's things like a character smoking a cigarette, or a joke about marijuana, etc. The General category will not allow depictions of drugs such as heroin, cocaine, or any sort of drug paraphernalia such as a bong. That stuff remains in the 18+ category.

- In regards to genital bulges, there will not be any sort of genitalia that will be either well-defined or partly (and of course, never wholly) visible. The only type of bulge permissible is a rounded shape. If the bulge shows any sign of the actual genitalia underneath, it's going to be rated 18+.

- EDIT for clarification:In regards to "giant breasts", there will be submissions that have emphasis on the buttocks/mammary region. There will not be prominently defined nipples, lactation, or depictions of mammaries in graphic sexual situations. Jokes about boobs are fine, characters that are busty are fine, etc.

There will not be hardcore drug use, graphic sexual acts, defined or visible genitalia, etc. in the General category. Everything that was in the Moderate category was deemed acceptable for users that are 13 years old, which is the minimum age requirement to use the site. Our youngest users will not have access to content that they would not have had access to before the merge.

As with every time we've made changes to the Guidelines in the past, we're going to monitor how they impact the community over the next couple of months and make further changes from there. If you see a submission rated incorrectly, please report the submission and staff will look into the issue and re-rate accordingly.

We always welcome suggestions from the Weasyl community- if you think there's a specific line that needs to be re-worded, or that something is missing (or needs to be removed), we're very much open to hearing opinions and sharing experiences.

Furrhan
07-28-2017, 05:06 AM
Okay. That sounds much better. Thanks for the clarification, Tiger.
Might I suggest this is made more clear in the guidelines too?
Especially since, unlike what you've just said, the guidelines do explicitly say that use of marijuana and other drugs are allowed in the General category.


May include incidental or comedic use of drugs such as marijuana, sativa, hallucinogens or prescription drugs.

This definitely needs clarification on the Ratings page itself to save headaches both for your staff and the community.

And, by the way, I still object to the word "comedic", but then I am biased as I have had one friend killed and another sent to prison as a result of drugs.

Axikita
07-28-2017, 05:38 AM
Looking good, I'm pleased to see the bulk of these changes.

I do have one concern, pertaining to item I.C.7:

Adoptables, Auction, and Raffle Reminders: It is acceptable to post reminder submissions, however any reminder may only be posted one time every 24 hours. There is no limit on the amount of individual auctions a user can have open at one time. Uploading a reminder, deleting it, and re-uploading it multiple times in 24 hours or less is considered a violation. In addition, any submission that falls under this rule must be tagged with "reminder".

Requiring a reminder tag as part of the rules seems like it may cause the same problem the Moderate category did- people operating under reasonable general assumptions breaking the letter of the law, and getting upset over 'arbitrary' rules when action is taken against them.

As far as I can tell, this is the only point in the rules where a tag is explicitly required- the tagging section simply asks the user to add tags as a courtesy and as an important exposure tool. The tag box on the submission page doesn't have reminder text warning about this rule. So generally, the only people who will follow this rule are users who have actually read the rules in depth enough to catch that they need to have this specific tag on this specific kind of submission.

The rest of the rule looks great, but my feeling is that if someone posts a reminder in a fashion that's otherwise allowed by the site, missing the "reminder" tag shouldn't be an infraction. Or else, some site redesign may be in order to make the requirement clear upon submitting.

- - - Updated - - -

Oap, caught another thing, regarding the new item II.D.2:



Screenshots that are largely/completely comprised of content from a video game are not permissible as submissions in main galleries. Such images are permissible in character galleries, provided only one screenshot is used per character. This rule applies to images made with character generators as well.

As written, I'm confused as to whether this supersedes II.D.1, and forbids game developers from submitting screenshots that are largely/completely comprised of content from a video game that they themselves have created. If I made everything in the screenshot, but it's a video game, can I post it? If so, II.D.2 might need a slight wording tweak.

Tiger
07-28-2017, 06:34 PM
Okay. That sounds much better. Thanks for the clarification, Tiger.
Might I suggest this is made more clear in the guidelines too?
Especially since, unlike what you've just said, the guidelines do explicitly say that use of marijuana and other drugs are allowed in the General category.

This definitely needs clarification on the Ratings page itself to save headaches both for your staff and the community.

And, by the way, I still object to the word "comedic", but then I am biased as I have had one friend killed and another sent to prison as a result of drugs.

Marijuana and prescription drugs aren't really the type of thing that we'd rate in the Mature category. Mature would be more for things like heroin, cocaine, krokodil, etc. For the hallucinogens...I think it could go either way. Hence why we have the use of the words "comedic" and then "abuse" to separate General and Mature.

My condolences to hear about your friends. I understand where you're coming from; I've met quite a few people who have struggled with substance abuse, and it's not an easy thing at all, for all parties involved (heck, I now have an IRL job that frequently involves clients with substance abuse difficulties). As far as Weasyl goes, I wasn't staff when the very first Ratings Guidelines draft was written, but I can assure you that there were no ill intentions meant when the word "comedic" was chosen to describe how drugs are rated in the General (formerly Moderate) category.


Looking good, I'm pleased to see the bulk of these changes.

I do have one concern, pertaining to item I.C.7:


Requiring a reminder tag as part of the rules seems like it may cause the same problem the Moderate category did- people operating under reasonable general assumptions breaking the letter of the law, and getting upset over 'arbitrary' rules when action is taken against them.

As far as I can tell, this is the only point in the rules where a tag is explicitly required- the tagging section simply asks the user to add tags as a courtesy and as an important exposure tool. The tag box on the submission page doesn't have reminder text warning about this rule. So generally, the only people who will follow this rule are users who have actually read the rules in depth enough to catch that they need to have this specific tag on this specific kind of submission.

The rest of the rule looks great, but my feeling is that if someone posts a reminder in a fashion that's otherwise allowed by the site, missing the "reminder" tag shouldn't be an infraction. Or else, some site redesign may be in order to make the requirement clear upon submitting.

I agree with you, and I'll make sure the rest of the mod team sees this as well. At the moment, doing some coding to bring attention to the tag requirement under I.C.7 is pretty much out of the question, but we can absolutely bring it in as a moderation policy.



- - - Updated - - -

Oap, caught another thing, regarding the new item II.D.2:

As written, I'm confused as to whether this supersedes II.D.1, and forbids game developers from submitting screenshots that are largely/completely comprised of content from a video game that they themselves have created. If I made everything in the screenshot, but it's a video game, can I post it? If so, II.D.2 might need a slight wording tweak.

Game developers are absolutely welcome to submit their content! If they created the video game and the models and such, they're fully welcome to upload it. II.D.2 is meant to address things like World of Warcraft screenshots, Minecraft screenshots, Second Life screenshots, etc. Staff was having quite a rough time with things like Second Life, where people would buy different content from different makers/artists and put it on their avatar and not credit the original artist in the screenshot, and then we'd have to request the user to credit the artists, and they'd not remember any of them, then....yeah, the process was long and painful.

You've made a good point here, though, and I'll bring this up with the mod team as well, and see if we can make the wording a bit more clear.

Furrhan
07-31-2017, 05:13 AM
Why though? Why do you not rate marijuana and prescription drugs as mature? That's the only thing I still don't understand.

XoPachi
07-31-2017, 11:49 AM
I honestly don't get the drug use and how a clearly defined, in focus, sexualized fat ass can at all be considered something a general audience should have in their feed.

Like I can't in good conscience rate any of my pinups "suitable for all ages". I wasn't asking how it fit under their new guidelines earlier which was what the response to me assumed. I was saying their idea of what's acceptable for all viewership is really skewed. Like that just doesn't make sense to me.
Like read this aloud to yourself.

"General: All Audiences
Contains no mature or explicit content. Content must be suitable for audiences under 18.

Nudity - May contain a compositional focus on sexualized anatomy (mammaries, buttocks, groin bulges, etc.) of clothed or partially clothed characters, or non-detailed nudity."

That's...that's actually hilarious.
W/e. I already tediously put all of my stuff under the mature rating already. I'm not losing sleep over it. I just think the change was poorly thought out is all.

Frank LeRenard
07-31-2017, 12:32 PM
I honestly don't get the drug use and how a clearly defined, in focus, sexualized fat ass can at all be considered something a general audience should have in their feed.

Like I can't in good conscience rate any of my pinups "suitable for all ages". I wasn't asking how it fit under their new guidelines earlier which was what the response to me assumed. I was saying their idea of what's acceptable for all viewership is really skewed. Like that just doesn't make sense to me.

And yet, if memory serves me correctly, there are other users of the site who would argue that this rule change doesn't go far enough to relax the constraints.

Personally, I'm good with the under/over 18 categorization, because in the US (where Weasyl is based) that's the legal boundary between not an adult and an adult. Also, trying to determine, for example, when some butt is too much butt for people aged 13-18, and just enough butt for people over 18, is a goddamned nightmare. And then trying to come up with the exact language that ensures that EVERY user of the site is on the same page about that (and about groin bulges, and boobs, and the way characters are posed, and so on and so forth) is an even bigger nightmare. Enforcement becomes painful, often requiring discussion, and then the users who made the infraction are unlikely to understand exactly where they went wrong. If you have a simple (objective!) catch-all that's pleasing to everyone, it would be good to hear it.

I'm speaking here only about the quasi-sexual stuff, of course. I don't have much of an opinion on drug use, except to say that attitudes about marijuana, at least, are evolving.

Toshabi
07-31-2017, 12:42 PM
Are you guys considered a furry website yet?

Tiger
07-31-2017, 04:48 PM
I honestly don't get the drug use and how a clearly defined, in focus, sexualized fat ass can at all be considered something a general audience should have in their feed.

Like I can't in good conscience rate any of my pinups "suitable for all ages". I wasn't asking how it fit under their new guidelines earlier which was what the response to me assumed. I was saying their idea of what's acceptable for all viewership is really skewed. Like that just doesn't make sense to me.
Like read this allowed to yourself.

"General: All Audiences
Contains no mature or explicit content. Content must be suitable for audiences under 18.

Nudity - May contain a compositional focus on sexualized anatomy (mammaries, buttocks, groin bulges, etc.) of clothed or partially clothed characters, or non-detailed nudity."


Keep in mind that when the code was pushed to combine Moderate and General, there certainly may have been submissions better suited for Mature. There just was no way for us to sort every submission that was rated Moderate into either General or Mature. The decision was either- ease up on restrictions and allow more in General, or tighten up restrictions and disallow more in General. It is pretty much guaranteed that there were submissions in Moderate that should've been put in Mature. If you find an image in the General category that needs to be rated Mature, the report feature can bring it to staff attention and we can re-rate from there.

To add to Frank's post a bit- figuring out if a bulge was large enough to be put in Moderate, or defined enough for Mature, or if boobs were too large for General, or if nipples were too defined for Moderate, or if a character's butt was too large for General, etc. was indeed awful. Not just from the aspect of the user trying to rate their content, but also the aspect of training new mods. The Moderate category was the hardest, most subjective category to figure out what should belong in there. And during staff meetings, Moderate was just so horrible to try and re-word because every staff member, from senior staff to the newest, had different thoughts on how to word everything to be ideal.

Speaking of wording, though- the current wording isn't flawless. As Frank mentioned, if you have ideas as to how to word the RG more effectively and accurately, feel free to post 'em in this thread or message a staff member.


Why though? Why do you not rate marijuana and prescription drugs as mature? That's the only thing I still don't understand.

Marijuana is just not as extreme as something like heroin, krokodil, etc. We could go in to statistics about the age of marijuana smokers, how addictive it is, where it's legal and not legal, its medical purposes, etc. At the end of the day, though, marijuana is not "hardcore" like heroin.

Prescription drugs are so common nowadays, there is really no reason to consider them on the same tier as the hardcore stuff mentioned above. (I personally have been on well over a dozen different prescription drugs in the past 15 years, and can assure you they are monitored quite closely by doctors and other medical staff).

If you've got a solid case as to why marijuana and prescription drugs should be rated with the hardcore stuff, feel free to post here for discussion, or bring it up with staff privately.

I understand that you've lost loved ones to drugs, and I'm not in any way trying to undermine the seriousness and heartbreak of their passing. But when it comes down to it, Weasyl's guidelines are written based on what is reasonable for our community as a whole, and what is reasonable for the staff to enforce.

XoPachi
07-31-2017, 06:45 PM
To add to Frank's post a bit- figuring out if a bulge was large enough to be put in Moderate, or defined enough for Mature, or if boobs were too large for General, or if nipples were too defined for Moderate, or if a character's butt was too large for General, etc. was indeed awful.

Wow...



You guys are trying way too hard. You're taking something simple and looking too deep into irrelevant nuance. That's where the extra work is coming from.

Frank LeRenard
08-01-2017, 01:08 AM
You guys are trying way too hard. You're taking something simple and looking too deep into irrelevant nuance. That's where the extra work is coming from.

Things do get complicated when you shoot for a set of ratings that are clear, fair, and open. "I know it when I see it" is much easier to implement, yes, but it's also arbitrary.
Is there a simple alternative that's not arbitrary?

Metsys
08-01-2017, 11:29 PM
Personally, I'm good with the under/over 18 categorization, because in the US (where Weasyl is based) that's the legal boundary between not an adult and an adult.

I would like to think that a gallery's main focus should be providing a better experience for users, and not drawing a single line at what is technically legal and not legal for an age group. What people want to see is not a function of their age. We have G, PG, PG-13, R, NC-17 and Adult movie ratings for a reason. Can you imagine if all movies had to be either rated either G, NC-17 or Adults Only?

It is better to have more ratings (and more granulated viewing control) at the expense of more errors of artwork sneaking up or down a rating bracket, than to have only Adult and Non-Adult bins to look at.

When I see a movie, I fully suspect that a PG-13 movie might have an F-word in it, or maybe non-sexual nudity a la Titanic, things that I would generally consider to be R-rated content but happen once or twice in the movie and be extremely brief. We are used to that, and more rating levels for artwork provide that kind of multi-level sieve system where a borderline or mis-rated piece of artwork is not a total disaster for the user. If you are viewing the PG gallery, you won't be too offended by the occasional PG-13 work. If you have the gall to be viewing the NC-17 gallery, then don't be surprised if there's the occasional Adult work. Provide clear guidelines as to what should go into each category for enforcement, but in practice ratings are more humps than hard walls. More rating tiers means less of a jump in the "maturity index" of a work if something is mis-rated, meaning more minor errors but far less egregious ones which cause urgent user complaints and panicked mods.

Because I can't think of a more probable rationale*, I'm assuming that the purpose of this policy change was to relieve some of the administrative burden moderating the gallery. If that was the purpose of this change, then I strongly recommend that policy changes should be more centered around the user experience. By doing so, you might find a solution that benefits both (see above).


Is there a simple alternative that's not arbitrary?

Yes, you make relativity a feature, not a bug.

*Actually a thought just occurred to me. If the confusion was over the existence of an intermediate category, then it might be due to existing rating systems on other art galleries. So I went to the first place that made logical sense. Sure enough, Fur Affinity only has a General, Mature, and Adult ratings. So after doing some due diligence research, I take my assumption back. This change is probably so that Weasyl matches Fur Affinity's rating system.

Furrhan
08-02-2017, 10:02 AM
Marijuana is just not as extreme as something like heroin, krokodil, etc. We could go in to statistics about the age of marijuana smokers, how addictive it is, where it's legal and not legal, its medical purposes, etc. At the end of the day, though, marijuana is not "hardcore" like heroin.

Prescription drugs are so common nowadays, there is really no reason to consider them on the same tier as the hardcore stuff mentioned above. (I personally have been on well over a dozen different prescription drugs in the past 15 years, and can assure you they are monitored quite closely by doctors and other medical staff).

If you've got a solid case as to why marijuana and prescription drugs should be rated with the hardcore stuff, feel free to post here for discussion, or bring it up with staff privately.

I understand that you've lost loved ones to drugs, and I'm not in any way trying to undermine the seriousness and heartbreak of their passing. But when it comes down to it, Weasyl's guidelines are written based on what is reasonable for our community as a whole, and what is reasonable for the staff to enforce.

Regardless of how "hardcore" it is, marijuana is still an addictive, often harmful, and mostly illegal drug and I still don't think it belongs in a "general" category in which one would expect only to find inoffensive and/or harmless content.

I understand what you're saying about the prescription drugs though. If they belong to the person shown and aren't being abused then that's fine. I don't want to stigmatise any medical conditions or anything.

QT Melon
08-02-2017, 01:04 PM
I rarely come on here, but I do have to chime in that removing the moderate category was breaking something that didn't need to be fixed.

Voltaire
08-17-2017, 09:39 AM
I rarely come on here, but I do have to chime in that removing the moderate category was breaking something that didn't need to be fixed.
I'd have to agree with this, but I won't push the opinion further, seeing as any points I can think of have already been made.

What I did come here to ask about was the new outlook on video game screenshots. I don't always post screenshots, but when I do, they focus on something unique that I created in the game. I can understand that you don't want people posting random pictures of a video game's landscape, because no matter how artistic the screenshot itself looks, everything it features is content created and manipulated by the game's creators.
But at the same time, some people out there use free-form games like Minecraft (for lack of a better example, and because I myself play it) to create amazing visual art. So, as for the question I referred to earlier: why are video game screenshots as an artform no longer allowed to be submitted to Weasyl?

Nuka
08-19-2017, 01:57 PM
I never use this forum but I logged on to voice my opinion that removing the Moderate category was a huge mistake. Why the heck would you remove that?

QT Melon
08-31-2017, 01:43 PM
I find it odd that a site that tried to distinguish itself from Fur Affinity would try to be more in line with its (FA's) rating system (which is pretty nonsensical).

XoPachi
09-30-2017, 12:14 PM
https://www.weasyl.com/journal/120501/leaving-weasyl-ratings-system-rant
Scathing, but she's right...

QT Melon
10-28-2017, 07:45 PM
I think the increasing amount of spam left around on the forums, lack of response and inactivity in general has shown this site is pretty much dead.

Frank LeRenard
10-30-2017, 02:33 AM
Gonna' be honest, but I can't disagree with that sentiment. At most I feel like Weasyl is trundling along at a constant, very sleepy level. Seems as though everybody's gone back to FA, and now people just use this as a backup and check in only at long, irregular intervals.

Any plans for Halloween this year, staff?

Tiger
10-31-2017, 11:52 PM
The site has significantly slowed down. It's pretty painful to admit that it's gotten to this point but, well, it has.

I'm holding out hope that there are plans to move the site forward and that it'll pick up again. It's a small bit of hope, but it's there.

Best wishes to current staff. (Also, hi Frank. Best wishes to you, too.)

Frank LeRenard
11-01-2017, 02:56 AM
Hi Tiger. Good lord, when did you retire from staff? If you're out now too, that's a pretty big nail in the coffin....

I'd go back to posting on FA myself, but they pissed me off too much. Guess I'll just stick around here and hope something eventually happens. But it's going to need to be big to get this place going again. Lots of new moderation staff hired and trained, an advertising push to remind everyone it's still around and what changes have occurred, effort put into creating an actual community atmosphere, maybe some new features to truly differentiate it from other sites to make it competitive again (and of course, that last point requires a larger number of active devs). Such things are technically possible. I'll leave it at that.

Tiger
11-01-2017, 08:56 PM
Been retired since the end of August. It was a really hard decision to make, but I was just so burned out. :( I still ache a bit when I think about it. There's a really great team on staff, and I've no doubt in their ability to make the site succeed. It's just a matter of getting the content pushed and keeping the community engaged and active.

QT Melon
11-02-2017, 11:10 AM
I have no intentions of going back as FA is cluttered like DA. I have moved on to tumblr, instagram...when I can post. I'm busy with work now.

ChomperHugger
11-13-2017, 10:32 PM
I'm here too. I don't really care for FA either. Too bulky and site seems to be having too many slowdowns. I like here far better.

Bornes
12-07-2017, 08:53 PM
Regarding the current subject about how dead the site is, I'm sorry I just have to comment:
It went downhill when you all refused to do suggestions from the get-go.

Push to make the art site "general" instead of furry - you all said it was general but weren't willing to write it down anywhere but one post, once, on the forums, when deliberately asked. And then I'm pretty sure you deleted it later.

You made no effort to advertise or even do search engine optimization. You didn't have to buy ads to advertise, either. You could've just got people to post about weasyl on other platforms- a thing that was happening anyway but was massively stunted when you refused to commit to the "We're totally not 100% furry" message, which scared a lot of people away from joining your site.

When FA came out with folders, you guys kind of just stagnated.
Your folder system is great but you can only put a submission into ONE folder?? On FA you can put an image in multiple folders. Hell, if you can get the one image in multiple folder thing working, I'd come back immediately.

Your tagging system is just... Well there's several threads on that already, but the tldr is you can't make the site work on tags and then establish a climate where the community is afraid to tag things.

I really really wanted this site to work but it was on a downward trend a long time ago and yeah I'm aware this post is totally unnecessary, but seeing you guys talk about this sad thing as if it were totally by accident is maddening to me.

Frank LeRenard
12-08-2017, 03:08 PM
I would question whether refusing to dedicate the site to the furry fandom really did so much damage. I guess, sure, it always has been a strange mixed message, since most of the site promotion was done at e.g. furry conventions and the userbase/staff is obviously mostly furry. But you could also argue that things would have worked out better had there been more promotion to bring in a larger non-furry userbase. Unless of course we're still at the stage on the internet where never the twain shall meet. I admit I don't follow these things.

The lack of advertising and lack of technical support, though, is a problem. The tag system I do think makes sense in principle, but it hasn't worked out in practice. Some of it is apparently cultural, some of it's technical. I don't know if this has since been resolved, but before I retired there were no good tools for staff to effectively deal with tag-related reports, for example, making the whole thing really more an empty threat than a usable organizational tool.

But the main thing is, I think there just isn't enough manpower right now to get the site back on its feet. I bet everybody forgot, but there was a discussion thread concerning this here rating change back in mid-2016 (https://forums.weasyl.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?8594-Ratings-Guidelines-Community-Discussion-and-Going-Open-Source!). It took this long for the changes discussed in that thread to finally be implemented. Unless something has changed, it's probably because there's this massive and ever-present moderation queue to be worked on and support tickets to be addressed, and only a handful of people to do it all, one ticket at a time. Meanwhile, the existing staff get exhausted and frustrated, circumstances change and people leave or just fade away, making the whole thing even harder to deal with.

Not just a few things. Many things.

Uluri
06-21-2018, 12:07 PM
My only complaint about the higher ratings being only 18+ is now that Gore is left locked behind an 18+ filter like it is on FA. I really really liked on DA that gore is an "Are you sure you want to view this" type mature content. Especially since a large amount of younger people often draw gore artwork.

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