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XoPachi
06-04-2016, 07:11 AM
I want to preface this by stating that I can't think of a technical solution or a way to aggregate the numbers for this as I don't know coding that well. This also isn't about what or who someone may not like.

I'm usually not a big fan of recently popular sections on art sites especially when NSFW content is allowed. The biggest issue I take with it is that in most cases, the majority of what is popular are uploads by already established users with wildly massive followings across multiple sites. That goes triple if they specialize in NSFW. I feel like often times this sort of pushes down smaller up and coming artists who could benefit more from a bit of a front page signal boost.
For example, I think many of us know who Fluff Kevlar is. And if not, they're not difficult to search for or stumble across at all. But they are pretty much guaranteed to take the top spot in Recently Popular being one of Weasyl's highest viewed artists no matter what they upload. But Blue-Narwhal is just shy of a meager 50 followers and in the year I've followed them I've yet to see anything they upload gain any significant traction. This isn't to say they're more skilled, but they're skilled enough that they should have their work spotlighted somehow, I feel personally.

A recently popular page is fine and really, it only makes sense that a popular user would make it there frequently. I'm not faulting Weasyl here. But how about a system that promotes artists producing quality work many haven't seen? Even something smaller scale to start. Like a section where mods can feature anything they feel is worthy of praise (not favorites, but a different, moderator exclusive method). It'll show up on the front page with an ability for all users to opt in for notifications. Let's say Tiger likes something by an artist and he really wants others to see it so he hits a button and added a special comment promoting them. I guess you could compare it to DA's Daily Deviation system.
I could also see the critique section being used as a means to provide viewership if given more emphasis.

And no, this is not me being jealous or upset about not being there. I myself am someone who routinely makes it to the recently popular page. I've actually removed an image because I personally felt a dirty, unfinished, low tier sketch of a Lucario in a sexual situation didn't deserve it over a potentially far better artist. I could get into how I similarly see work of objectively lower than average quality reach this section merely because the user is popular, but that's a topic I don't feel like detailing.

I don't want popular artists to start getting shafted, but I want quality lesser known content creators to get some equal footing without pulling teeth or "selling out" to do so. That's all.

GlaringFeline
06-04-2016, 12:24 PM
I agree with you, I see some popular artists I follow in the recently popular section pretty often. I like the idea of a "daily deviation"-esque system here and a tab on the bottom of the homepage specifically for small content creators. It's revolting that pushing small content creators down and propping up popular ones is a trend in the art community, and it would be a breath of fresh air to see even the most minuscule change in the tide. I can also see this making Weasyl a more popular website for 'underdog' artists.

Kayla-La
06-04-2016, 03:08 PM
I support the general idea of a sort of spotlight for quality art that people would otherwise miss. It's true that Popular sections on sites like these usually end up just being the same small group of folks, and the way they're often positioned as the default search/on/near the top can essentially prevent folks from finding much of anyone else.

I don't think this is something that could be reliably coded and automated. It'd have to be manually done, likely best with a mod/admin dedicated to it. This'll bring its own problems though, since quality can be subjective and users tend to be quick to call a bias if -their- stuff isn't chosen but someone else's is.

That said, even with the potential issues, I think it would be worth it. More sites need to be willing to give spotlight to users who are producing good work but not getting noticed because they get buried, in my opinion.

XoPachi
06-04-2016, 05:44 PM
I support the general idea of a sort of spotlight for quality art that people would otherwise miss. It's true that Popular sections on sites like these usually end up just being the same small group of folks, and the way they're often positioned as the default search/on/near the top can essentially prevent folks from finding much of anyone else.

I don't think this is something that could be reliably coded and automated. It'd have to be manually done, likely best with a mod/admin dedicated to it. This'll bring its own problems though, since quality can be subjective and users tend to be quick to call a bias if -their- stuff isn't chosen but someone else's is.

That said, even with the potential issues, I think it would be worth it. More sites need to be willing to give spotlight to users who are producing good work but not getting noticed because they get buried, in my opinion.

Agreed 100%.

I don't think this would be at all a quick or easy fix, but a long term and experimental one that requires serious community feedback (like everything really). In the hypothetical scenario that this does ever happen, I think as Weasyl grows, we'd have to bring on a good number of specially appointed individuals all of varied tastes and interests. Not necessarily "mods" but some kind of ambassador system. Some who like cartoons, some that like realism, pornography, digital mediums, vehicles, comics, stories, poetry.

It wouldn't ever be flawless, but if it ever got as perfect as it could be, the remaining flaws, I feel, would just be something intrinsic to a system like that that we really couldn't do much about.

Noxid
06-04-2016, 06:39 PM
It sounds cool but.. I dunno. There's a lot of things to consider.

First and foremost in my mind is that deviantart made the choice to retire their daily deviations for good reason. At least as long as I knew of it, it was a constant source of harassment and infighting among users. "oh, so-and-so got picked why not me" "why is this a daily deviation" "this sucks"
or "yeah that person always gets DDs because they know the person who picks them" "it's always the same people anyway" "whats the point".
basically it generated a lot of negativity and unless it's completely automated (and even still) people are going to feel that there's unfairness to it.

The other concern I have is that in order to have it be interesting and worthwhile it needs to be kept fairly up to date and that could take a fair bit of work for whoever gets put in charge of it. Weasyl is a volunteer project, after all.

Another thing that comes to mind, although it's been described above, is that it's all very subjective, and there's really no right or wrong answer. So I really wouldn't even know how to begin choosing anything other than what personally interests me. Granted I wouldn't be a good judge for a variety of reasons, but I think for anyone it's hard to be perfectly unbiased.


I just keep it on random, myself.

XoPachi
06-04-2016, 07:19 PM
Whoa whoa. I must've been off DA a LONG ass time. When did they remove DD's?

Noxid
06-04-2016, 07:26 PM
oh huh, well after some poking around it turns out they just moved somewhere else. I don't really understand deviantart's layout these days..
I definitely remember it being a point of contention though.

Kayla-La
06-04-2016, 09:00 PM
It sounds cool but.. I dunno. There's a lot of things to consider.

First and foremost in my mind is that deviantart made the choice to retire their daily deviations for good reason. At least as long as I knew of it, it was a constant source of harassment and infighting among users. "oh, so-and-so got picked why not me" "why is this a daily deviation" "this sucks"
or "yeah that person always gets DDs because they know the person who picks them" "it's always the same people anyway" "whats the point".
basically it generated a lot of negativity and unless it's completely automated (and even still) people are going to feel that there's unfairness to it.

The other concern I have is that in order to have it be interesting and worthwhile it needs to be kept fairly up to date and that could take a fair bit of work for whoever gets put in charge of it. Weasyl is a volunteer project, after all.

Another thing that comes to mind, although it's been described above, is that it's all very subjective, and there's really no right or wrong answer. So I really wouldn't even know how to begin choosing anything other than what personally interests me. Granted I wouldn't be a good judge for a variety of reasons, but I think for anyone it's hard to be perfectly unbiased.


I just keep it on random, myself.

I don't disagree with you (I brought up that people will complain myself), but I do think there's something to be said about Weasyl being a considerably different environment than Deviantart. I think it would be far more manageable on here than it is on DA.

GlaringFeline
06-04-2016, 09:27 PM
I don't disagree with you (I brought up that people will complain myself), but I do think there's something to be said about Weasyl being a considerably different environment than Deviantart. I think it would be far more manageable on here than it is on DA.

I agree. DevianTART is full of ten year olds that will get salty because they don't understand that skill can make the difference between being accepted or rejected. That, and dA's community and mods are absolutely toxic so there will be some of the "this sucks and shouldn't have gotten a DD". In some cases, people that say that are right though. I've seen stolen art as a DD before, and I don't doubt that some stuff that the rules say aren't allowed has gotten one.

Weasyl is a much more mature community and I think a DD-like system would be a good addition here. There will be some people pitching a fit about it, but that's unavoidable with pretty much anything.


The other concern I have is that in order to have it be interesting and worthwhile it needs to be kept fairly up to date and that could take a fair bit of work for whoever gets put in charge of it. Weasyl is a volunteer project, after all.


I'd be willing to volunteer if this happens.

Taw
06-05-2016, 01:07 AM
Personally I'd prefer a system that does not rely on any individual or group choosing what goes into a featured sort of section. I think the best route for anything like this should be decided by the community from views/faves/comments in x period of time, rather than someone picking and choosing, since it could potentially lead to favouritism of sorts of either certain artists, certain genres, or certain styles.

Perhaps the recently popular could eventually be refined to include a few filters on it, such as:
1. Show/hide NSFW submissions
2. Only show artists who are above/below x followers

Or something along those lines. Though I'm not quite sure how feasible these types of things would be, or what other ones could be added to it.

Noxid
06-05-2016, 07:48 AM
Would it make sense to use a logic similar to what already picks Most Popular, but not include fav's from watchers in determining score?

Frank LeRenard
06-05-2016, 06:25 PM
I feel like this is kind of a long-standing problem with the arts in general, isn't it? That there are loads of extremely talented people getting overlooked. I suppose having a committee or a single person out there browsing and picking their favorites might work, assuming said committee or person had what the community would consider respectable taste. I'm sure you'd always have to try to hit that balance of "I think the community will really like this one" and "I think the community should see this one". You'd also have to look at EVERYTHING: not just art, but music, photography, writing (stories and poems!), sculpture, etc. It sounds kind of hellish if you ask me.

XoPachi
06-05-2016, 08:24 PM
Well like I said, a small start won't hurt and I'm not pressing for immediacy or first time perfection. Basically any system where it's not the same artists or same content being boosted would be lightyear ahead of where we are now.

I like where Taw is going, personally.

Kayla-La
06-05-2016, 11:43 PM
The problem I have with automated systems is that it then can't discern quality or any other problems (unless it were queued and then a person manually approved it). I feel like it would just end up becoming random lower-quality art in an automated system where many people will then end up learning to ignore that section. For me, the point of this idea is less 'show any art from people with less watchers' and more 'show quality art from people who just aren't being noticed'. I understand 'quality' is subjective to a degree, but I don't think this is an impossible problem.

I understand the worry of bias, but I do feel there needs to be some sort of human involvement to make it a worthwhile feature. After all, it's -people- who are going to be looking at the art in that section. I think my favourite idea is a team of different people with different tastes, and maybe a SFW version and a NSFW version? A community vote/call for suggestions for the best way to go about it might help get more attention than just this thread.

Antumbra
06-06-2016, 03:03 PM
Instead of a staff picked DD, maybe add a feature that allows people to promote an artist under a certain watcher number and have them voted on by users? Then those could be sorted by popularity and eventually if that artist gets popular enough, they can't be nominated again.

XoPachi
06-06-2016, 05:37 PM
The problem I have with automated systems is that it then can't discern quality or any other problems (unless it were queued and then a person manually approved it). I feel like it would just end up becoming random lower-quality art in an automated system where many people will then end up learning to ignore that section. For me, the point of this idea is less 'show any art from people with less watchers' and more 'show quality art from people who just aren't being noticed'. I understand 'quality' is subjective to a degree, but I don't think this is an impossible problem.

I understand the worry of bias, but I do feel there needs to be some sort of human involvement to make it a worthwhile feature. After all, it's -people- who are going to be looking at the art in that section. I think my favourite idea is a team of different people with different tastes, and maybe a SFW version and a NSFW version? A community vote/call for suggestions for the best way to go about it might help get more attention than just this thread.

I was also thinking of some sort of curator rotation system where the people would switch hands at regular periods. I didn't put it in the OP because a lot of problems immediately arised from that when I thought about it a bit longer. Mainly that it would assume Weasyl is even active enough where we could regularly have a new group of people each interval to choose new art. There's also the issue of how we'd choose new curators in the first place every time making sure we select

EDIT: Strange, I don't know why my post cut off like that. I thought I finished my thoughts...
Can't remember what I was going to say.

Frank LeRenard
06-06-2016, 09:37 PM
Instead of a staff picked DD, maybe add a feature that allows people to promote an artist under a certain watcher number and have them voted on by users? Then those could be sorted by popularity and eventually if that artist gets popular enough, they can't be nominated again.

That's a cool idea.

I'm thinking too of something like a rotating system based on keeping new users appearing on the front page. Like each time a particular user's submission makes it to the 'currently popular' section, an integer flag gets bumped up by 1, and when it reaches a certain number that user's account is barred from the 'currently popular' section for a reasonable period of time. So that way, users who are already popular will keep getting exposure, but it will also allow for other faces to start gaining some more views as well.

And no, I haven't thought deeply about that idea to discover all its potential flaws.

Bornes
06-07-2016, 01:44 AM
Would it make sense to use a logic similar to what already picks Most Popular, but not include fav's from watchers in determining score?
That may be a way to fix it.

Maybe consider [(% of watchers who faved art) + (% of online users at time of upload who faved art)] instead of a direct number? That way a person with 50 watchers who gets 5 faves in five minutes probably won't get a higher 'recently popular' score than a person who has 5 watchers but 2 faves in 5 minutes?

Edit: Or instead change the whole thing.

Instead of counting faves, count watchers within a certain time frame of a submission. If X artist gains Y amount of watchers within Z amount of time of an upload, that upload is featured in 'recently popular'.

Hendikins
06-12-2016, 02:46 AM
The biggest issue I take with it is that in most cases, the majority of what is popular are uploads by already established users with wildly massive followings across multiple sites. That goes triple if they specialize in NSFW.

I'm still on holidays at the moment (and the weather in Hong Kong has been pretty miserable the last couple of days) so I'm not going to respond to everyone here, but I do think this could be dealt with to some extent by weightings:

Determine the average number of views/favourites for each rating, and weight accordingly

We can already determine information including the average number of views/favourites for each rating, as well as percentage of views/comments/favourites per rating. If NSFW material is say, 2x more likely to be faved than General, that's fairly easy to neutralise.

Add a weighting based on ratio of watchers to views/favourites

This one is fairly simple. If you notify 3000 people instead of 30, you'll probably get more activity. Including a weighing based on ratio of watchers:views/favs would help neutralise that effect. 50 favs from 3000 watchers wouldn't be significant at all, but 50 favs with 30 watchers is very significant.

Ultimately it comes down to whether people want "Recently Popular" to be in absolute terms or relative - and the latter does increase discoverability of artists.

rbartrop
06-17-2016, 03:53 PM
Whatever you do, someone isn't going to be happy (no big surprise there), but here's my two cents:

Weighting by rating:
It's no surprise that certain subjects get more attention than others, and I've been there where a piece gets ignored because it's not one of those subjects. On the other hand, there is a sfw filter, and plenty of tools for removing anything else that people don't want to look at. What would be useful, I think is ensure that Recently Popular still returns a page full of results, even if it does have to search a little deeper.

Weighting by watchers:

This is a good idea. I'm all for discovering new talent, and if they're already a hugely popular artist, and there's really not much point in having an artist come up if they're already on your watch list. For that matter is if feasible to have a filter that checks your watch list, and filter them out of Recently Popular?