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mythil
07-30-2014, 06:41 PM
Hi all!

I couldn't find anything against the rules about group advertising (If I missed it and it is, I'll take it down no worries)

But I started a Vegan-fur group on this forum. If you're interested, check it out. I'm considering making it a vegan-vegetarian alliance thing but we'll see.

https://forums.weasyl.com/vbulletin/group.php?groupid=42

sassySloth
07-31-2014, 06:20 PM
This forum has groups???

Anyway YO! I joined the vegan team like 3 months ago after having been a vegetarian for 5 years.
A friend in college showed me the ways of the vegetarian. Then when I saw Earthlings a few months ago it finally pushed me into veganism. Glad to be doing it thouhg.

What's your story?

mythil
07-31-2014, 07:13 PM
This forum has groups???

Anyway YO! I joined the vegan team like 3 months ago after having been a vegetarian for 5 years.
A friend in college showed me the ways of the vegetarian. Then when I saw Earthlings a few months ago it finally pushed me into veganism. Glad to be doing it thouhg.

What's your story?

Vegetarian for 10 years, didn't even know what vegan was. Someone showed me The China Study and "forks over knives" and then I did research, found out that milk and eggs weren't as kind as I thought.. Turned into a vegan athlete (weight lifting, martial arts).

Rory
07-31-2014, 07:59 PM
Someone showed me The China Study and "forks over knives"

I was a vegetarian for many years, and to be quite blunt examining those studies and doing my own research + background in science lead me to go back to eating meat, which fixed a lot of my internal health problems and helped me to lose body fat %. Not sure if you've ever come across this in-depth examination, but if not it could be some interesting reading at the very least: http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/ To each their own, as long as such choices aren't forced upon others or used to feel superior. You're also welcome to advertise this group here, afaik.

sassySloth
07-31-2014, 08:00 PM
Vegetarian for 10 years, didn't even know what vegan was. Someone showed me The China Study and "forks over knives" and then I did research, found out that milk and eggs weren't as kind as I thought.. Turned into a vegan athlete (weight lifting, martial arts).Woah dank. So are you mostly in it for the health?

It's wild how many different background might lead to vegetarian/veganism. My friend is in the "human's just don't need meat," camp. I'm in the "I hate factory farming," camp. But it's all good.

mythil
07-31-2014, 08:41 PM
I was a vegetarian for many years, and to be quite blunt examining those studies and doing my own research + background in science lead me to go back to eating meat, which fixed a lot of my internal health problems and helped me to lose body fat %. Not sure if you've ever come across this in-depth examination, but if not it could be some interesting reading at the very least: http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/ To each their own, as long as such choices aren't forced upon others or used to feel superior. You're also welcome to advertise this group here, afaik.

Actually many studies have shown by leading universities that eating meat is the worst thing you can do for your health. But really I would rather this thread NOT turn into a mis-information thread. Why do I say mis-information? Because the owner of that blog and the readsearch done on it was by a person who's only qualifications are as a Sunday school teacher and sock puppeteer. The research presented in forks over knives was done by Harvord, Yale, The Chinese Institute for Nutrition, Two UK Universities and two highly respected Doctors and Researchers.

Thanks, but I wouldn't want this to turn into a "don't go vegan" in a vegan thread.

(If you want these studies go to nutritionfacts.org)

Rory
07-31-2014, 09:00 PM
Actually many studies have shown by leading universities

The above quote is meaningless, coming from someone who researched under a Harvard professor for 4 years. I simply offered a subjective experience that is related to the topic at hand, yet counter to yours. As I said, to each their own, I'll bow out.

mythil
07-31-2014, 09:14 PM
The above quote is meaningless, coming from someone who researched under a Harvard professor for 4 years. I simply offered a subjective experience that is related to the topic at hand, yet counter to yours. As I said, to each their own, I'll bow out.

And I'm getting my information from Doctors and researchers that are independent and going off of the facts. Most of the studies telling you to eat fats and animal proteins are backed by the US meat and dairy industry.

These are paraphrased but not by much as I'm too tired to find the original quotes.

Harvod University has stated that the safe amount of meat in a diet is zero.
The FDA and ADA has stated that if they were basing their advice on science they would urge everyone to go vegan
Dr Esselstyn proved that a high carb vegan diet can and has reversed heart disease, auto-immune disease and cancer

If you want to go on the science

A human jaw and saliva match that of a herbivore as does our chewing motion
Our intestines are the same length as all other herbivores while obligate carnivores are shorter so that they may remove decaying flesh from their bodies.
We have no claws or teeth able to kill an animal.

I can provide you with all papers if you like? Not funded by the meat industry of course. Or videos.

To be honest, you started the fire. Coming into a thread that doesn't even apply to you, saying how great meat is in a vegan thread, saying how our quotes are meaningless and then dropping out.

sassySloth
07-31-2014, 09:21 PM
Mythil, dawg. I'm a vegan and this is no way to go about things. You can't accost any and everyone who counters your views. While I agree with some of what you're saying you might think about slowing your approach down.

mythil
07-31-2014, 09:26 PM
Mythil, dawg. I'm a vegan and this is no way to go about things. You can't accost any and everyone who counters your views. While I agree with some of what you're saying you might think about slowing your approach down.

Noted and advice taken on board.

It's just infuriating on how someone would come into a thread for vegans and say "Hay, meat is great and you're talking rubbish".

But okay I'll leave it at that.

Hewge
07-31-2014, 09:28 PM
I don't know, Rory's posts seemed perfectly fine to me. Totally neutral, even!

sassySloth
07-31-2014, 09:33 PM
It's just infuriating on how someone would come into a thread for vegans and say "Hay, meat is great and you're talking rubbish".

But okay I'll leave it at that.Right, I get that, but most people eat meat. You have to be able to react to meat-eaters genially and with perspective if you want to make any progress.

Rory did just post what he knew. You can't expect people to listen if you don't listen yourself. Take all points in hand.

Just a thought :unsure:

mythil
07-31-2014, 09:37 PM
I don't know, Rory's posts seemed perfectly fine to me. Totally neutral, even!

Okay, I'll add my own response which will be along the same lines and actually true to life (It's not mocking or some sort of revenge).

I used to eat meat but to be honest, it made me a bit fat and I really couldn't keep my weight down for competitions so I didn't compete. I went vegetarian and lost about 50lbs. I then found out that just not eating meat wasn't enough, I saw how we abuse animals by keeping them in close cages, how free range was a lie, how dairy cows would be forcefully be made pregnant and then their screaming child would be taken away from them and killed, not to mention all the general cruelty that happens such as the de-horning, castrations and so forth that are done with no anaesthetic. After I learned all of this in one day I sat down on my bed and cried. A grown, six foot man who punches people in the face for a sport cried.

I vowed that I would never eat meat or consume anything that came from an animal again. Then I found things like "Forks over knives", "Vegucated" and "Earthlings" and the research of people like Dr Gregger and Dr Campbell and I found that the science showed that eating a vegan diet is the best for our health. I went to research this a bit more and found people like Mac Danzig and James Wilkes, both vegan UFC champions. I found the world record power lifting champion is a vegan along with many, many other of my sporting heroes. I got more and more into the sports I love but never did seriously because meat was keeping me fat, sluggish and I went from 260lbs to 165. I could run, sprint and do far more. My health, well-being and so forth really improved.

That's my story, well more or less, left some stuff out for time :D

- - - Updated - - -


Right, I get that, but most people eat meat. You have to be able to react to meat-eaters genially and with perspective if you want to make any progress.

Rory did just post what he knew. You can't expect people to listen if you don't listen yourself. Take all points in hand.

Just a thought :unsure:

My father is a meat eater, I don't hate him. My partner isn't 100% vegan and I don't hate him. My vegetarian friends still eat eggs and cheese, I don't hate them. :P I don't hate meat eaters.. Though I've been a vegan for a long while and you always get the same arguments, over and over again which have been disproved but people seem to expect you to answer for yourself. It gets infuriating a lot of the time.

sassySloth
07-31-2014, 09:59 PM
My father is a meat eater, I don't hate him. My partner isn't 100% vegan and I don't hate him. My vegetarian friends still eat eggs and cheese, I don't hate them. :P I don't hate meat eaters.. Though I've been a vegan for a long while and you always get the same arguments, over and over again which have been disproved but people seem to expect you to answer for yourself. It gets infuriating a lot of the time.Fuck, most people I know eat meat or animal products, same as you. And I get those same arguments. Lunging at each and every meat eater is not productive.

But at the end of the day most people grew up eating meat. You can't lunge at people who grew up in a system like the one we (Americans at least) live in.

mythil
07-31-2014, 10:02 PM
Fuck, most people I know eat meat or animal products, same as you. And I get those same arguments. Lunging at each and every meat eater is not productive.

But at the end of the day most people grew up eating meat. You can't lunge at people who grew up in a system like the one we (Americans at least) live in.

I am taking your advise on board. I did not want this to turn into an argument thread or a discussion thread about what is right or wrong, I think I stated that at the start.. I'll have to double check. Also the majority of the people I know don't eat it, the one's that I knew almost disowned me when I found out as they just had to prove me wrong. But that's beside the point.

Nope, must have been another thread somewhere else, my mistake.

no_really
07-31-2014, 11:35 PM
yo, i'm a vegan

because milk is satan's semen, eggs ain't plants, and fish are still animals.

whenever someone says "i'm a vegetarian" i tell them that dairy isn't a vegetable.

Vae
07-31-2014, 11:44 PM
The thing about the ways forums work is that they invite discussion. Not all discussion will be in agreement with you, because that isn't how discussion tends to work.

If contradictory viewpoints anger you, then perhaps the forum thread model is not the right choice of action, here. A thread signature might do better justice to your purpose, as those typically do not invite commentary, if they're so benign.

As for the topic at hand, I personally couldn't be a vegan, morals and health be damned. The majority of my favorite foods are meat. And food is one of those little pleasures in life.
But I have no problem with other people's dietary choices, if they leave mine alone, and don't pull some kind of holier-than-thou complex about it.

Gamedog
08-01-2014, 12:42 AM
"Our intestines are the same length as all other herbivores "

Just popping in to say that no, they aren't. Herbivores have very long intestines because digesting plant matter takes a very long time. Carnivores have very short intestines because meat needs to be passed through quickly to avoid spoiling. Humans sit in between carnivores and herbivores.

There's a reason animals like cows, sheep, goats, deer, and moose have chambered stomachs.

Sheep intestines: 55-78 feet long
Horse intestines: 60-70 feet long
Cow intestines: 130 feet long
Human intestines: 25 feet long
Pig intestines: 62-78 feet
Dog intestines: ~20 feet long
Deer intestines: 28 feet long


I also suggest that anybody interested in a vegan lifestyle to NOT watch videos like Earthlings (most, if not all of it is PETA footage and PETA has been found guilty of staging animal snuff films (http://www.furcommission.com/saving-society-from-animal-snuff-films/)) or Forks Over Knives, because it's incredibly biased and misleading (http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/).

Factory farms, fur farms, and dairy farms do not operate the way vegans think they do.
Veganism will not save the world, and most vegan "facts" that "prove" that vegan diets would save the world are outright lies (like the myth about 1lb of meat taking 16lbs of corn lolol)

I could never be a vegan, not because "I like meat too much", but because I know it's built from the ground up on sob stories, heartbreaking, staged footage, paid animal snuff films, misleading "facts", and bold-faced lies.

piñardilla
08-01-2014, 02:50 AM
I know someone who has anemia issues if they don't get heme iron, and have heard many stories about people who tried to go veggie but their system couldn't adjust to it for one reason or another. In short, nutrition is complex and varies greatly from person to person, and you can't simply make a blanket recommendation for an extreme diet for everybody. Moderation, not elimination, should be the general strategy for most.

Moogle
08-01-2014, 03:12 AM
If you want to go on the science

A human jaw and saliva match that of a herbivore as does our chewing motion
Our intestines are the same length as all other herbivores while obligate carnivores are shorter so that they may remove decaying flesh from their bodies.
We have no claws or teeth able to kill an animal.


That's actually all really interesting! I've wondered that before, and how people (usually) have to resort to using some kind of weapon to hunt.

I'm no vegan (yet? xD), I do dislike the taste of most meat though. My mom thinks it's part of a balanced diet (& I did too, but I'm not so sure anymore) though so I'm more or less forced to eat it at dinner, also it's something (like many) have grown up eatting, so I also do it out of habit. Once I move out I may cut it out of my diet fully, love me some greens!~ And hey, if it's the more healthier route then I'll definetly jump on board! xD

Gamedog
08-01-2014, 03:48 AM
A human jaw and saliva match that of a herbivore as does our chewing motion
Nope. Humans, herbivores, and omnivores saliva have amylase in them, obligate carnivores do not.
A human doesn't grind it's food the way a cow does, have you ever seen a cow chew grass? Do people you know really do that with their mouths? On top of that, the teeth of herbivores like cows, deer, sheep, horses, goats, etc all have constantly-growing teeth that need to be ground down by that grinding-chewing motion. Omivores like pigs and humans don't.


We have no claws or teeth able to kill an animal.
We don't need claws or teeth because we're intelligent enough to have created tools. If humans are for some reason forbidden to use tools to get their food (this is a common belief held by vegans who pull this 'we don't have claws' bullshit), vegans would die out from not being able to farm.
Humans are bipedal, their eyes are forward facing, they have opposable thumbs, walk upright on two legs and have a shitload of stamina. Humans were made to chase down prey and tire it out over a long distance, this is the same thing wolves and hyenas do.
We're not herbivores, we're not prey animals. We don't and CAN'T outrun predators. We're at the top of the food chain because we're intelligent enough to have created tools to defend ourselves. We're intelligent enough to be able to tame and domesticate animals and use them as livestock.
Chimpanzees are an example of an omnivore that uses tools to kill other animals. Chimps will stab smaller monkeys with spears and eat them for dinner.

mythil
08-01-2014, 09:13 AM
"Our intestines are the same length as all other herbivores "

Just popping in to say that no, they aren't. Herbivores have very long intestines because digesting plant matter takes a very long time. Carnivores have very short intestines because meat needs to be passed through quickly to avoid spoiling. Humans sit in between carnivores and herbivores.

There's a reason animals like cows, sheep, goats, deer, and moose have chambered stomachs.

Sheep intestines: 55-78 feet long
Horse intestines: 60-70 feet long
Cow intestines: 130 feet long
Human intestines: 25 feet long
Pig intestines: 62-78 feet
Dog intestines: ~20 feet long
Deer intestines: 28 feet long


I also suggest that anybody interested in a vegan lifestyle to NOT watch videos like Earthlings (most, if not all of it is PETA footage and PETA has been found guilty of staging animal snuff films (http://www.furcommission.com/saving-society-from-animal-snuff-films/)) or Forks Over Knives, because it's incredibly biased and misleading (http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/).

Factory farms, fur farms, and dairy farms do not operate the way vegans think they do.
Veganism will not save the world, and most vegan "facts" that "prove" that vegan diets would save the world are outright lies (like the myth about 1lb of meat taking 16lbs of corn lolol)

I could never be a vegan, not because "I like meat too much", but because I know it's built from the ground up on sob stories, heartbreaking, staged footage, paid animal snuff films, misleading "facts", and bold-faced lies.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-creQ8XbNl0U/UE_Cm1rSroI/AAAAAAAAAoo/8Z_jJ0fKrsc/s1600/comparativelookvegetarian.jpg

1) I don't support PETA, they have a bad reputation.

2) The Forks over Knives / China Study evidence was peer reviewed and the clinical evidence was proven to be true.

3) If you don't think factory farms work the way we think they do then please show me the evidence. I would like the post the videos up here and then see if they count as animal abuse. If the mods take them down for animal abuse then I will have proved my point.

4) Don't pull that rawfoodsos stuff up again *sigh* It was discredited a while ago. Not only because the person running that blog and doing the "research" has zero background in science, nutrition and so forth but because what evidence she proposes has been proved major flawed. I can link to research too, see.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4 NSFW Lecture by Gary Yourofsky. Contains videos taken undercover at factory farms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-F8whzJfJY SFW (I think) Lecture by James Wildman

http://nutritionfacts.org/ SFW, lectures and information by Dr Michael Gregger (Adviser to the humane society).

TeenageAngst
08-01-2014, 10:03 AM
Ahh veganism, if vegetarians were Prius drivers, the vegan would be the guy who actually goes out of his way to ride his bicycle EVERYWHERE, including but not limited to making everyone on the city bus wait while he secures it to the front of the vehicle for transport, because by god he has a free pass with his university ID and he's going to use it. He's the guy that scowls at SUV drivers while drinking a fair-trade cup of Trader Joe's coffee out of a BPA-free reusable plastic cup. Vegans are the folks who major in liberal arts because it has the words "liberal" and "arts" in it, but minor in graphical design so they can pretend they're actual art students. If there was a medal for inconveniencing others while condescendingly making snide remarks about people who conform to willingly normal gender roles, it'd go to vegans. If there was a trophy for avoiding actual work while simultaneously crafting an ever larger sense of intellectual superiority and self-worth, it'd be on the vegan's tiny-house mantle.

The actual habit of eating only specific types of foods is not something I particularly care about, people can eat whatever they want. It's the mentality behind the vegan that gets me. These people, who have single handedly carved out an entire section of a Wegman's, who wear sandals almost as often as the deshis, have gone so far as to make their entire personality focus on their own righteous indignation and superiority. There's something almost admirable about it. They're so devoted to their own ridiculous pseudo-religion they inconvenience themselves as a sign of their faith. They're not like those wishy-washy vegetarian Prius drivers who, "Well, I don't like to eat meat but I want eggs. I wanna save the planet but, you know, I still need to DRIVE to work." No, vegans pull out all the stops. If they're going to be self-righteous and condescending they're going to make sure they can justifiably do it to *everyone*, even vegetarians. They truly are the greatest of the self-important bearded tossers.

mythil
08-01-2014, 10:10 AM
Ahh veganism, if vegetarians were Prius drivers, the vegan would be the guy who actually goes out of his way to ride his bicycle EVERYWHERE, including but not limited to making everyone on the city bus wait while he secures it to the front of the vehicle for transport, because by god he has a free pass with his university ID and he's going to use it. He's the guy that scowls at SUV drivers while drinking a fair-trade cup of Trader Joe's coffee out of a BPA-free reusable plastic cup. Vegans are the folks who major in liberal arts because it has the words "liberal" and "arts" in it, but minor in graphical design so they can pretend they're actual art students. If there was a medal for inconveniencing others while condescendingly making snide remarks about people who conform to willingly normal gender roles, it'd go to vegans. If there was a trophy for avoiding actual work while simultaneously crafting an ever larger sense of intellectual superiority and self-worth, it'd be on the vegan's tiny-house mantle.

The actual habit of eating only specific types of foods is not something I particularly care about, people can eat whatever they want. It's the mentality behind the vegan that gets me. These people, who have single handedly carved out an entire section of a Wegman's, who wear sandals almost as often as the deshis, have gone so far as to make their entire personality focus on their own righteous indignation and superiority. There's something almost admirable about it. They're so devoted to their own ridiculous pseudo-religion they inconvenience themselves as a sign of their faith. They're not like those wishy-washy vegetarian Prius drivers who, "Well, I don't like to eat meat but I want eggs. I wanna save the planet but, you know, I still need to DRIVE to work." No, vegans pull out all the stops. If they're going to be self-righteous and condescending they're going to make sure they can justifiably do it to *everyone*, even vegetarians. They truly are the greatest of the self-important bearded tossers.

That is more of a personal attack than anything, I don't fit into any of those thing you've just claimed.

TeenageAngst
08-01-2014, 10:15 AM
I never said you did. "Not all vegans" and all that. If you take it personally, well...

mythil
08-01-2014, 11:20 AM
That's actually all really interesting! I've wondered that before, and how people (usually) have to resort to using some kind of weapon to hunt.

I'm no vegan (yet? xD), I do dislike the taste of most meat though. My mom thinks it's part of a balanced diet (& I did too, but I'm not so sure anymore) though so I'm more or less forced to eat it at dinner, also it's something (like many) have grown up eatting, so I also do it out of habit. Once I move out I may cut it out of my diet fully, love me some greens!~ And hey, if it's the more healthier route then I'll definetly jump on board! xD

I know many people who don't eat meat at all, in fact more and more of the worlds top athletes are turning to that diet (some of them to improve their endurance and health for their sport but hay, the more the merrier). So if they can do it, why not other people? :)

Fay V
08-01-2014, 11:49 AM
Not vegan, living with two vegans and a vegetarian (haha ethics departments)

Tbh there's some good moral reasoning behind going vegan. There can be some good health reasons too.

I do get a little frustrated when people try to pull the "people are not meant to eat meat, we don't have the teeth or claws for it" humans are endurance hunters, we're not fast but we can run down prey until it collapses, and we absolutely can digest raw meat easily. human beings and many greater apes are omnivores by nature. A vegetarian diet even would require far too much work and variety to have been sustained for much of the early human population.

That being said we've developed enough that for some a vegan/vege diet is good and can hit all the markers needed for nutrition. For some dropping meat is the most healthy choice. But it works the other way as well. I actually went vegetarian for a while and learned I'm one of those anemic types. My doctor ended up telling me the simplest option was to just eat some red meat once in a while.

Anyway point is, veganism can be cool kudos, but misinformation works both ways and it's not the best choice for everyone, nor can we pretend that we evolved to be herbivores purely.

mythil
08-01-2014, 01:29 PM
Okay so I'm a bit of a dick.. Sort of (though don't think all vegans are like me).

1) I don't hate you for eating meat, some of my friends do (and god I can't seem to word that without it sounding like "I have black friends")
2) Do what you want I can't force you to do otherwise
3) I just want a place for people like me to discuss out things, that's what the group is for.

I've been kinda' ousted from a few social groups just for my choice in not killing/eating without having to say anything apart from who I am and it's made me a bit tetchy.

In intertubes language: I got my feelings hurt and was all bwahh.

So I'm sorry for that. Just want a group of people within my lifestlye (not outside of it) that I can talk to and they can talk to each other.

Gamedog
08-01-2014, 01:48 PM
[QUOTE=mythil;69067]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-creQ8XbNl0U/UE_Cm1rSroI/AAAAAAAAAoo/8Z_jJ0fKrsc/s1600/comparativelookvegetarian.jpg
1. Facial muscles - why exactly is this at all important? What "facial muscles" are you referring to exactly? What does "well-developed" even mean?
2. Jaw type - I don't know what this means.
3. Jaw joint location - Why is this important? Pigs are omnivores and their jaw joint is higher than the molar plane.
4. Jaw motion - It would be incredibly difficult for a tiger to grind his teeth with huge carnassials. In addition to this, the side-to-side motion that we see in a horse is because horse teeth need to be ground down - like a rabbit's teeth - or else they will continue to grow up into it's skull. Humans have a permanent set of teeth - like a pig or a bear or any other omnivore - and do not need to grind their teeth down.
5. Temporalis - [LINK] (http://www.drjimboyd.com/Muscle_Review_7.gif) ????
Masseter - [LINK] (https://anomalousmedicalweb.blob.core.windows.net/public/PublishedPages/Blog/2012/Dec/Masseter/masseter_large.png?v=20130925175942) ?????
We use both of them. They don't exist for no reason.
On top of that, the temporalis muscle of a horse is pretty friggin tiny compared to ours: [LINK] (http://fce-study.netdna-ssl.com/images/upload-flashcards/back/4/8/33384936_m.jpg)
6. Mouth opening size - We don't need to open our mouths 45* because we have tools like knives and forks, which we use to cut food into small pieces. We even use these tools to cut up fruits and vegetables.
7. Teeth incisors - check out the teeth of a raccoon, which is an OMNIVORE. Fun fact: when I'm identifying animal skulls, the way I tell i an animal is a skunk or a raccoon is by looking at the human-like incisors:
http://www.raccoonworld.com/images/web/raccoonskullheadonum1.jpg
[LINK] (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3697/9388998761_8e48e5e22d_m.jpg) <-- this is a skinned skunk skull, just a warning
Does this mean skunks and raccoons are now herbivores?
8. Canines - We have no use for canines because we have the intelligence and opposable thumbs to create and use weapons against predators, to kill prey, and we have stamina used to chase down prey.
9. Saliva - Omnivores DO have digestive enzymes in their saliva, the two main ones being amylase and lipase.
amylase - used to digest starch and carbs
lipase - used to break down and digest fat
Then further on down the road we have protease, which is used to digest protein.
Carnivores do not produce enzymes in their saliva, but they do produce it further down in the digestive system. The thing they don't have that omnivores have is amylase, which means they are NOT OMNIVORES and so it would be cruel to put them on a vegan diet, for example.
10. Stomach pH - Humans produce pepsin in their stomach and the ideal pH for a human is 1-2. We can also digest MEAT.
11. Stomach capacity - Perhaps this is because HERBIVORES like cows need to eat a shitload of grass to get the same amount of nutrients that we can eat with an omnivorous diet. Fun fact: When herbivores like deer and cow are suffering from nutritional deficiences, they'll chase down, kill, and eat small mammals and birds.
12. Length of colon - Already debunked this
13. Colon texture - Already debunked this and provided photos to show the differences between carnivore, omnivore, and herbivore intestines.
14. Vitamin A - What does this have to do with anything? Don't overdose on Vitamin A pills and you're good.
15. Urine - Extreme lack of clarification. What does this even mean?
16. Claws/Nails - Already explained this


"1) I don't support PETA, they have a bad reputation."
You say this and then you immediately post a video for Gary Yourofsky - a man hated by many vegans because he wished rape upon people.

"2) The Forks over Knives / China Study evidence was peer reviewed and the clinical evidence was proven to be true."
Clearly it wasn't. That blog I linked pointed out all of the factual errors and provided PROOF of these errors.

3) If you don't think factory farms work the way we think they do then please show me the evidence.
Glass Walls Project:
Beef Plant - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMqYYXswono
Turkey Farm - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=852zxDEAR-Q
Pork Plant - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsEbvwMipJI
Use of a captive bolt stunner - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr00arV2XIw
Captive bolt stunner on a rabbit - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DF12Wf_zm8


Humans are not herbivores. Humans are not carnivores. Humans are omnivores.

mythil
08-01-2014, 01:54 PM
Humans are not herbivores. Humans are not carnivores. Humans are omnivores.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you're not getting me to change :P

Gamedog
08-01-2014, 02:04 PM
You're entitled to your opinion, but you're not getting me to change :P
That's fine. I didn't expect to change the opinions of any vegans. Just wanted to put the facts out there so that there's an opposing view alongside the complete misinformation.

mythil
08-01-2014, 02:05 PM
That's fine. I didn't expect to change the opinions of any vegans. Just wanted to put the facts out there so that there's an opposing view alongside the complete misinformation.

I think we can argue about misinformation a lot.

You have your opinion, I have mine. Let's leave it at that.

Benny Bunnycorn
08-01-2014, 03:19 PM
Honestly, I have always wanted to be a vegetarian, but my parents don't want me too. The reason I want to isn't just to help animals out, and possibly lose weight, and it's not to act superior to others, but my biggest reason for wanting to be a vegetarian is because, sometimes, I am ashamed of being assosiated with other meat eaters. WAY too often I see people go around bullying vegetarians about how they absolutely HAVE to eat meat and how veganism is evil and such. And honestly, I notice this a LOT more with meat eaters than I do with vegetarians. I do see vegetarians do it sometimes, but vegetarians are not the ones who make seriously offensive animal cruelty jokes 24/7 just to piss off vegetarians as if only human life is sacred and everything else was put on this planet just for us to use them. I despise these people to know end, and wish I could become vegetarian because of them. But no matter how many times I try to become vegetarian, my parents tell me I can't. Ugh, sometimes I just wish I could move out.

...Also, one time I saw a show that talked about people who eat Flying Foxes (one of my favorite animals, I adore them really) and it made me sad to the point where I felt hypocritical about feeling sad for Flying Foxes, but not as much for cows and pigs, which is another reason that makes me want to be a vegetarian. As for cheese, eggs, milk, and honey? I'm indifferent about em.

mythil
08-01-2014, 03:24 PM
Honestly, I have always wanted to be a vegetarian, but my parents don't want me too. The reason I want to isn't just to help animals out, and possibly lose weight, and it's not to act superior to others, but my biggest reason for wanting to be a vegetarian is because, sometimes, I am ashamed of being assosiated with other meat eaters. WAY too often I see people go around bullying vegetarians about how they absolutely HAVE to eat meat and how veganism is evil and such. And honestly, I notice this a LOT more with meat eaters than I do with vegetarians. I do see vegetarians do it sometimes, but vegetarians are not the ones who make seriously offensive animal cruelty jokes 24/7 just to piss off vegetarians as if only human life is sacred and everything else was put on this planet just for us to use them. I despise these people to know end, and wish I could become vegetarian because of them. But no matter how many times I try to become vegetarian, my parents tell me I can't. Ugh, sometimes I just wish I could move out.

...Also, one time I saw a show that talked about people who eat Flying Foxes (one of my favorite animals, I adore them really) and it made me sad to the point where I felt hypocritical about feeling sad for Flying Foxes, but not as much for cows and pigs, which is another reason that makes me want to be a vegetarian. As for cheese, eggs, milk, and honey? I'm indifferent about em.

I would say respect your parents and if you want to prove to them that it's good for you then I can give you all the information you need, I'm sure others can to so if you want to join the group then go right ahead.

The best thing you can do is be happy and healthy and then no one can argue with you. My father was a bit worried about it because I lost so much weight but then I stopped losing at 160 lbs and went back up to 175 when I started do heavier lifts at the gym. Mind you, 160lbs is pretty good for a guy.

We can help you with the information you need and remember that, people will oppose you, but you need to just stay healthy and show them via results.

Fay V
08-01-2014, 04:59 PM
You're entitled to your opinion, but you're not getting me to change :P

You are indeed entitled to your opinion and your lifestyle, you are not entitled to spreading misinformation about taxonomy.

Homo sapiens are omnivores, we have the characteristics for eating meat and vegetation. This is a basic biological fact.
Humans are not carnivores, humans are not herbivores, humans are omnivores, this is not an opinion.

Taxonomy is not the destiny for all behavior. Because we are omnivores we have the opportunity to eat what is available for our dietary needs. This is why in the past and in groups of humans that are still living in hunter gatherer tribes akin to early man, it is a lot of hunting and gathering, needing both.

Humans in developed regions have much more variety on available calories and much less calorie demanding lifestyles. One can be vegetarian or vegan relatively easily compared to our basic evolved forms.
The point overall is simply, there are many reasons to be vegan financial, ethical, health, etc. Attempting to claim it is because human beings are meant to be herbivores is false. It is simply false.

mythil
08-01-2014, 05:08 PM
You are indeed entitled to your opinion and your lifestyle, you are not entitled to spreading misinformation about taxonomy.

Homo sapiens are omnivores, we have the characteristics for eating meat and vegetation. This is a basic biological fact.
Humans are not carnivores, humans are not herbivores, humans are omnivores, this is not an opinion.

Taxonomy is not the destiny for all behavior. Because we are omnivores we have the opportunity to eat what is available for our dietary needs. This is why in the past and in groups of humans that are still living in hunter gatherer tribes akin to early man, it is a lot of hunting and gathering, needing both.

Humans in developed regions have much more variety on available calories and much less calorie demanding lifestyles. One can be vegetarian or vegan relatively easily compared to our basic evolved forms.
The point overall is simply, there are many reasons to be vegan financial, ethical, health, etc. Attempting to claim it is because human beings are meant to be herbivores is false. It is simply false.

True though I ask people to consider this. Any time a vegan says they are vegan you will get people who want to prove them wrong, insult them or just post pictures of bacon or just say something dumb like "Mmm bacon".

It gets infuriating for a lot of vegans to the point where they can snap, a lot. But one of the first comment was from a non vegan who wanted to provide information on how we're wrong, that can make you snap. Like a person who's been bullied a lot and someone makes a comment towards them and the go off.

I just want to put out a group for people who want to be vegans - vegetarians and talk amongst each other without this happening.

Rory
08-01-2014, 05:28 PM
It gets infuriating for a lot of vegans to the point where they can snap, a lot. But one of the first comment was from a non vegan who wanted to provide information on how we're wrong, that can make you snap. Like a person who's been bullied a lot and someone makes a comment towards them and the go off.

Deal with it. I've had about enough of you and your hypocritical attitude; "deal with it" is exactly what you said to people in your Tumblr thread, so don't go crying about how I'm "bullying" you for posting my own experiences on a forum without saying anyone was right or wrong.

mythil
08-01-2014, 05:37 PM
Deal with it. I've had about enough of you and your hypocritical attitude; "deal with it" is exactly what you said to people in your Tumblr thread, so don't go crying about how I'm "bullying" you for posting my own experiences on a forum without saying anyone was right or wrong.

I was not saying you did, just that it happens.

sassySloth
08-01-2014, 05:38 PM
I personally don't find any of the scientific arguments for vegetarianism/ veganism very helpful. Defensive meat eaters will simply sit on their stockpile of counter-stats and no one seems to get anywhere. It becomes a shouting match of "Nuh-uh I read this one study..."

I think it's more effective to make the ethical argument and appeal to peoples good will. Most people would probably say they love animals and if given the gun themselves would have a hard time putting a terrified animal (that wants to live of course. Living things like to stay alive) to death. A big part of the conversation is that the factory farming system controls information. Think about how much money meat companies make. It's absurd the amount of influence they have. The public only sees what they are allowed to see which is desensitizing imagery of happy pigs and cows. And cleanly cut and wrapped meat on grocery shelves. From birth we see pigs, chickens, cows, lamb as meat instead of animals that just want to live their lives.

Gamedog
08-01-2014, 06:01 PM
Any time a vegan says they are vegan you will get people who want to prove them wrong, insult them or just post pictures of bacon or just say something dumb like "Mmm bacon".
Ehhh it's kinda both ways, equally.
There are the assholes who will go out of their way to piss off a vegan by posting bacon, but vegans will sometimes go out of their way to find images of bacon or even slight mentions of veganism and go into insane tirades about rape and abuse.

This kind of thing is not uncommon on Tumblr:
http://i.imgur.com/5TTJu.png

Almost all vegan propaganda and advertisements is built on body shaming, slut shaming, making fun of libido, etc. In fact, that's what most of PETA's advertisements are and they're the main vegan advertising group out there. Vegans don't seem to be fighting against PETA though, especially when they suggest Earthlings to others.


EDIT: here's some good Tumblr vegan sources.
http://wesleylock.tumblr.com/post/85105369800/ok-so-not-unlike-a-lot-of-badly-done-vegan-flair
http://kavaeric.tumblr.com/post/86400172445/are-you-even-trying-hey-if-youre-here-because
http://amwrite.tumblr.com/post/90687322538/finding-a-vegan-dog-bone-is-proving-difficult
http://hobboxcorner.tumblr.com/post/90736441274/freedominwilderness-riotdog
http://brigwife.tumblr.com/post/56369864083
http://moonblossom.tumblr.com/post/80004180174/d0cpr0fess0r-tsupertsundere
http://logicd.tumblr.com/post/81822491533
http://the-unpopular-opinions.tumblr.com/post/81308663040/this-is-an-opinion-brought-to-you-by-a-rancher

For the most part, you can't talk logic into these people, they refuse any sort of evidence or proof and then they turn around and spread misinformation. that's my problem with veganism
Abstain from eating steak or milk or whatever, fine, I don't care, I'm of the belief that you can eat whatever the hell you want, but for christ sakes vegans need to find some new tactics, shaming people for being overweight, poor, sexually impotent, having autism, etc etc is NOT working, especially when the "FACTS" brought up are anything but facts.

mythil
08-01-2014, 06:13 PM
Eh it's okay, I think I'll just leave, probably the best option.
Not even mad, rage quitting or anything so to speak, but it's obvious I'm not making any friends here or any friends with the admins (which can be disastrous in general). Already admitted at least part if not all is my fault.

Thanks for trying at least. Hope you all, well stay safe and stuff.

Fay V
08-01-2014, 06:15 PM
True though I ask people to consider this. Any time a vegan says they are vegan you will get people who want to prove them wrong, insult them or just post pictures of bacon or just say something dumb like "Mmm bacon".

It gets infuriating for a lot of vegans to the point where they can snap, a lot. But one of the first comment was from a non vegan who wanted to provide information on how we're wrong, that can make you snap. Like a person who's been bullied a lot and someone makes a comment towards them and the go off.

I just want to put out a group for people who want to be vegans - vegetarians and talk amongst each other without this happening.
You are welcome to your group, and no one has stopped that, but as noted this is a forum, forums illicit discussion. The comment Rory wrote was not "all vegans are wrong" it was pointing out that your source might not be as solid as you believed, which is completely valid and completely neutral.
If one were to post "I am vegan, this study showed eating only carrots will make you poop diamonds" then someone saying "hey here's some research I found that says that's not the case" is not saying "all vegans are wrong get out." No one at all has stopped you from posting, making a group, or talking about your beliefs.

What has occurred is people discussing, quite calmly and with links and facts to back up their own positions, the relative biological facts of the human body and how that may be associated with health.

We don't have threads that are "X only" the transgender thread allows people that are not transgender to also discuss the issues. This is no different.

If you expect a thread where you can say whatever you want without disagreement of any kind, this forum is not for you. If you expected to be able to post one study and a documentary based on that study to then say sweeping generalizations about nutrition, this forum is not for you. I am not saying this to be rude or to incite you to leave, but to bluntly explain that the nature of forums is discussion. You will get disagreements, especially if you intend to post anything attempting to deal with research as that's the bloody point of "peer review" (also, it wasn't. One is a documentary based on a book that summarizes an observational study. Meaning only the studies were peer reviewed and that's generally just "the method is solid")

I understand getting frustrated and snippy, but this is not going to be a place where you are free from all disagreement about your lifestyle choices. Note that no one has said being vegan is wrong, no one has said you are not allowed to be vegan here or have your group to discuss. Differing facts were given which at no point tells people not to be vegetarian, but allows them to make an informed decision. You are entitled to your opinions and you are entitled to your life choices, but no matter how frustrating it is to you "Human beings are omnivores" is a biological fact and people are free to discuss that.


I personally don't find any of the scientific arguments for vegetarianism/ veganism very helpful. Defensive meat eaters will simply sit on their stockpile of counter-stats and no one seems to get anywhere. It becomes a shouting match of "Nuh-uh I read this one study..."

I think it's more effective to make the ethical argument and appeal to peoples good will. Most people would probably say they love animals and if given the gun themselves would have a hard time putting a terrified animal (that wants to live of course. Living things like to stay alive) to death. A big part of the conversation is that the factory farming system controls information. Think about how much money meat companies make. It's absurd the amount of influence they have. The public only sees what they are allowed to see which is desensitizing imagery of happy pigs and cows. And cleanly cut and wrapped meat on grocery shelves. From birth we see pigs, chickens, cows, lamb as meat instead of animals that just want to live their lives.

This I agree with. Scientific arguments either way are pretty bankrupt of actual power, because again we are omnivores so there's no sway in saying "it's natural not to eat meat at all", however we also have adjusted our living habits changing our dietary needs. The only thing science can really tell us is that you should burn more calories than you ingest, and how you get to that figure should be sure to balance the right vitamins and minerals.

For some that will be meat, for others it will be pure vege, woo.

The real ground gained is on ethical grounds. There are some rather compelling arguments for vegetarianism and veganism that present solid points in terms of actual rigorous academic discussion. Dealing with moral rights and blah blah no one actually cares here.
Your point about factory farms is true though. I am a meat eater, I probably won't change that, but I also expect people to be consistent. In that if they are willing to eat animals they should be okay with killing them. Not needlessly, but still. They have to give a reason for why fluffy is not a meal but a pig is. etc etc.

on the topic of factory farming, there is more we can do there, vegan, vegetarian, whatever. Thankfully I've had the benefit of living in areas where I can access local small farm items rather than factory meat, but not everyone has that benefit and to be ethically consistent something must be done about it.

Gamedog
08-01-2014, 06:44 PM
I agree with what Fay says. Personally I have no issues with people creating vegan groups, I just won't join them and it's simple as that, no harm done.

It's that when someone uses sources to back up or "prove" their side of an argument (because that's what it is, herbivore vs omnivore has been an argument in the vegan community for a loooong time) and these sources are shown to be not only incredibly biased but in some cases proven staged, t needs to be called out in my opinion. I care about these things because the myths spread by vegan documentaries like Earthlings harm ME as someone who works with dead animals, furs, trapping, taxidermy, etc.

I don't care for being called a serial killer and shit like that, that doesn't bother me, but what DOES bother me is when someone watches a documentary like Earthlings and feels compelled to walk along a trapline, setting off the traps, destroying them (traps are NOT cheap), destroying sets, and releasing captured animals because "Earthlings said it's cruel".

So whenever I see misinformation being spread regarding veganism, or whenever I see something like Earthlings being cited as a reliable source, I call that person out.

In some cases I've had people argue against me that things like trapping and hunting aren't needed, and this belief they hold justifies them disrupting organized culling hunts.
Terrierman sums up my feelings about this: http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.ca/2007/05/animal-rights-lunatics-are-starving-for.html but even things like THIS are not proof enough for most vegans. I've linked news articles of trains being derailed because of an overpopulation of beavers and cited that as a reason for why trapping is necessary, and even THAT did not convince them.

It's basically a fruitless effort but I won't stop because it attempts to harm what I do.

Accellerant
08-01-2014, 07:15 PM
Eh it's okay, I think I'll just leave, probably the best option.
Not even mad, rage quitting or anything so to speak, but it's obvious I'm not making any friends here or any friends with the admins (which can be disastrous in general). Already admitted at least part if not all is my fault.

Thanks for trying at least. Hope you all, well stay safe and stuff.

So you've butted head with some users, some being mods/admins, but that doesn't mean that a moderator/admin's going to banhammer you because you've strongly stated your beliefs. You have every right to fully believe in what you desire, just as how I believe that there was a man named Jesus in the past but that men in power have warped the currently established religions into their own ideals. It's expected that the more you butt heads with an opposing force, you bet they're going to come back at ya until someone decides to back down. The reality though, is that we all need to keep an open mind more so than ever before. What we define as what's "true" or "false" is always changing, especially now that all the information we could ever desire (both factual and inaccurate) is only a few key strokes away. I don't need to tell you how easy it is to make a biased video or blog post when you have the right images, music, links and words.

While I'm not Vegan myself, I do approve of people choosing it as their own personal lifestyle. We're all different in our own ways and we need to walk the roads we choose to travel. I believe piñardilla said it best when it comes to ones choice of Dieting and can even be used in comparison to many other life choices:


... nutrition is complex and varies greatly from person to person, and you can't simply make a blanket recommendation for an extreme diet for everybody. Moderation, not elimination, should be the general strategy for most.

Whether you choose to stay or leave, I still wish you safe travels.

sassySloth
08-01-2014, 08:04 PM
So whenever I see misinformation being spread regarding veganism, or whenever I see something like Earthlings being cited as a reliable source, I call that person out.You seem pretty hung up on video veracity. I agree with you in that people should make sure what they are watching matches the reality of the situation. But at the same time a movie like Earthlings can and should push the inquisitive viewer to dig deeper and find the truths themselves. That's what it did for me. I refuse to believe the entire film is staged. If you were to remove the staged footage I bet you'd still be left with a sizable portrait of abuse and mistreatment.

I read the article you linked about animal rights groups staging events and that was pretty eye opening! I might have guessed that happened, but seeing the evidence laid out was scary. I'll have to look into that more. Few of the cited staged videos were from factory farms however and that is arguably the most central industry in any discussion of veganism. Regardless of events in the fur industry thousands and thousands of animals are slaughtered for food every week. And their severely truncated life spans are almost invariably spent in horrific conditions. If they get to live at all (R.I.P Male chicks).

Gamedog
08-01-2014, 08:46 PM
You seem pretty hung up on video veracity. I agree with you in that people should make sure what they are watching matches the reality of the situation. But at the same time a movie like Earthlings can and should push the inquisitive viewer to dig deeper and find the truths themselves.
Do you really think the target audience - gullible, sensitive people and vegans - are gonna do that?
I question every single thing I'm provided regarding animal welfare, animal slaughter, veganism, etc.



I read the article you linked about animal rights groups staging events and that was pretty eye opening! I might have guessed that happened, but seeing the evidence laid out was scary.
It is really eye opening. I'm sure if you've seen Earthlings you've seen footage described in my link as well. I've watched all of the vegan documentaries and I used to be SUPER pro-PETA and lapped up every drop of their bullshit when I was younger, so I can recognize their footage when I see it.
On top of that, I used to be super anti-trapping, anti-fur, anti-hunting, anti-taxidermy, and anti-fur farm.. I educated myself on all of these and I'm extremely pro all of them.

Benny Bunnycorn
08-01-2014, 09:54 PM
And of course, meat-eating fucktards with their whole "Humans HAVE to eat meat, and vegans should be FORCED to eat it" type comments. And you wonder why I'm ashamed to be an omnivore. Whether we eat meat or not should be OPTIONAL, NOT forced on us! Plus, I think the way you guys are treating Mythril is COMPLETELY out of bounds. Ugh.


On top of that, I used to be super anti-trapping, anti-fur, anti-hunting, anti-taxidermy, and anti-fur farm.. I educated myself on all of these and I'm extremely pro all of them.

I've "educated" myself, and I am STILL anti-all of that. General rule of thumb, "Animal Welfarists" are human loving villains who only care about their own species, and will make up ANYTHING just to justify the bad things we do. Plus, they spend more time trying to piss off REAL animal lovers and activists than they do helping them themselves.

Hewge
08-01-2014, 10:02 PM
Oh... forcing?
So, like... people are literally shoving meat into your mouth? I don't know, I've never experienced people forcing meat into me. Or at least, not the food kind. x]

You guys ever considered just doing what you please, and not caring what others think? Mind blowing disposition, am I right?

Vae
08-01-2014, 10:03 PM
And of course, meat-eating fucktards with their whole "Humans HAVE to eat meat, and vegans should be FORCED to eat it" type comments.
No one has said this.
Literally no one has said this.
If I am mistaken, please show me where this has occurred, but not even TA has said this.

Did you actually read the thread?

Benny Bunnycorn
08-01-2014, 10:03 PM
Oh... forcing?
So, like... people are literally shoving meat into your mouth? I don't know, I've never experienced people forcing meat into me. Or at least, not the food kind. x]

You guys ever considered just doing what you please, and not caring what others think? Mind blowing disposition, am I right?

You would be surprised how many times meat lovers and quote/unquote "animal welfarists" go around telling people they HAVE to eat meat.

Fay V
08-01-2014, 10:19 PM
Mod note: keep it civil. Anymore namecalling or whatever nonsense will be infracted and banned from thread.

I honestly have never heard someone say that a vegetarian will be forced to eat meat, not even once. The closest I have ever heard is debating what a vegetarian would do in a situation where they have been stranded on a desert island or something. As in "There's not enough available plants, you'd have to eat meat to live, would you do it?"
I've had this conversation with my vegan roommates because i'm curious about their commitments.

Benny Bunnycorn
08-01-2014, 10:22 PM
Yeah, you're right. I let myself get carried away with my comment. ...But still, you'd be surprised how often I see meat lovers and quote/unquote "Animal Welfarists" basically suggest that people HAVE to eat meat.

Fay V
08-01-2014, 10:27 PM
Yeah, you're right. I let myself get carried away with my comment. ...But still, you'd be surprised how often I see meat lovers and quote/unquote "Animal Welfarists" basically suggest that people HAVE to eat meat.

Meh, honestly I don't see the relevance in this discussion that much. Perhaps some meat eaters do, perhaps some vegans set loose hundreds of stouts into the countryside and fuck up the ecosystem there. That's not really what's happened here in this discussion. People have readily and openly accepted that people are free to eat what they want or not, and have discussed the problem with misinformation back and forth.
Bringing up the nasty shit some people maybe do, with no reference just serves to vilify a group and make feelings of victimization, vengeance, and retaliation justified.

Gamedog
08-01-2014, 10:41 PM
And of course, meat-eating fucktards with their whole "Humans HAVE to eat meat, and vegans should be FORCED to eat it" type comments.
Actually no, I've never seen someone say that vegans should be forced to eat meat. I have, however, seen vegans say that people like me should be forced onto vegan diets - they do this by supporting the "abolishment" of meat-eating.


Plus, I think the way you guys are treating Mythril is COMPLETELY out of bounds. Ugh.
All we're doing is supporting the argument against the one he typed, which is that humans are herbivores.


General rule of thumb, "Animal Welfarists" are human loving villains who only care about their own species, and will make up ANYTHING just to justify the bad things we do.
I don't think this is true? Animal welfare = humane treatment of animals. These people push for anti-cruelty laws, humane slaughter methods, they go against the declawing of cats, the cropping and docking of dogs, they push against inhumane bloodsports, etc.
Animal rights activists, however (mostly vegan) are the ones who steal the dead bodies of laboratory scientists as "hostage", firebomb labs, spike trees with metal so that chainsaw belts snap on loggers, and destroy traps.
In fact, here's a list of terrorist attacks done by animal rights groups:
ALF (Animal Liberation Front)/ARM (Animal Rights Militia lololol):

Released two captive-raised dolphins from a marine laboratory into the ocean
Destroyed a laboratory in California, causing nearly $700,000 worth of damage
Mailed letter bombs to political party leaders in the UK
Made threats of contaminating chocolate bars with rat poison
Made threats of contaminating L’Oreal and Lucozade products
Set off firebombs in department stores
Set off bombs underneath the cars of animal researchers, destroying both cars
Attached bombs to cars of scientists
Attached bombs to cars of cancer researchers
Set off bombs attached to the cars of veterinary researchers
Set off a bomb at a bar in a university
Set off a bomb inside the car of a veterinarian and a physiologist, a baby in a stroller passing by the latter bomb was burned by the flash, had shrapnel inside his back and lost a finger
Sent a letter bomb to the head of a pharmaceutical company, which burned his face and hands with acid when he opened it.
Blew up hundreds of meat trucks
Destroyed meat inside supermarkets
Set down homemade bombs on the porches of businessmen with “links to” organizations they didn’t like
Attacked the director of an animal testing lab with pick-axes
Kidnapped a man and burned ALF into his back, threatening him not to tell the police
Firebombed a laboratory and set a bomb on the porch of a 70 year old woman, which fortunately, did not explode.
Stole the body of a dead woman out of her grave and kept it as hostage (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/may/12/animalwelfare.topstories3)

Earth First!:

Spike trees with metal rods so that the chains of loggers’ chainsaws would snap and kill them

ELF (Earth Liberation Front):

Burned down a ranger station
Spiked trees with metal rods
Burned down a ski resort
Destroyed power lines
Burned down logging headquarters
Burned down a SUV dealership
Set fire to Michigan State University
Set fire to logging equipment
Destroyed radio towers because they think “radio waves are dangerous”
Released minks from fur farms (we all know how well that goes, right?)
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/10/24/mink-slaughter-dozens-of-baby-ducks-after-extremists-set-free-500-animals-from-b-c-fur-farm/
http://clikhear.palmbeachpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/a30minks1.jpg



Are these the people you really want to support and identify yourself with..??

sassySloth
08-02-2014, 08:06 AM
Do you really think the target audience - gullible, sensitive people and vegans - are gonna do that?
I question every single thing I'm provided regarding animal welfare, animal slaughter, veganism, etc.Ahh, fair enough -_-

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the other things I said pertaining to the morality of meat eating. I'm willing to ignore these video politics because I've seen, and read, enough evidence to help me realize that supporting factory farming is not OK.


The closest I have ever heard is debating what a vegetarian would do in a situation where they have been stranded on a desert island or something. As in "There's not enough available plants, you'd have to eat meat to live, would you do it?"
I've had this conversation with my vegan roommates because i'm curious about their commitments.A classic. My response: Why does it matter? I'm not on a deserted island I'm in a well developed country where I have many, many alternatives to supporting animal slaughter (and by extension environmental damage, water depletion, etc.). To answer the question though I'd probably just commit suicide because fug that situation would be a bummer.


And of course, meat-eating fucktards with their whole "Humans HAVE to eat meat, and vegans should be FORCED to eat it" type comments. And you wonder why I'm ashamed to be an omnivore. Whether we eat meat or not should be OPTIONAL, NOT forced on us! Plus, I think the way you guys are treating Mythril is COMPLETELY out of bounds. Ugh.That would be fine if the decision of whether or not to eat meat effected yourself and no one else. But there's another party that your purchase affects isn't there? The option is "Do I pay for an animal to be treated terribly and then killed or maybe buy some veggies instead?"

Benny Bunnycorn
08-02-2014, 08:20 AM
Actually no, I've never seen someone say that vegans should be forced to eat meat. I have, however, seen vegans say that people like me should be forced onto vegan diets - they do this by supporting the "abolishment" of meat-eating.


All we're doing is supporting the argument against the one he typed, which is that humans are herbivores.


I don't think this is true? Animal welfare = humane treatment of animals. These people push for anti-cruelty laws, humane slaughter methods, they go against the declawing of cats, the cropping and docking of dogs, they push against inhumane bloodsports, etc.
Animal rights activists, however (mostly vegan) are the ones who steal the dead bodies of laboratory scientists as "hostage", firebomb labs, spike trees with metal so that chainsaw belts snap on loggers, and destroy traps.
In fact, here's a list of terrorist attacks done by animal rights groups:
ALF (Animal Liberation Front)/ARM (Animal Rights Militia lololol):

Released two captive-raised dolphins from a marine laboratory into the ocean
Destroyed a laboratory in California, causing nearly $700,000 worth of damage
Mailed letter bombs to political party leaders in the UK
Made threats of contaminating chocolate bars with rat poison
Made threats of contaminating L’Oreal and Lucozade products
Set off firebombs in department stores
Set off bombs underneath the cars of animal researchers, destroying both cars
Attached bombs to cars of scientists
Attached bombs to cars of cancer researchers
Set off bombs attached to the cars of veterinary researchers
Set off a bomb at a bar in a university
Set off a bomb inside the car of a veterinarian and a physiologist, a baby in a stroller passing by the latter bomb was burned by the flash, had shrapnel inside his back and lost a finger
Sent a letter bomb to the head of a pharmaceutical company, which burned his face and hands with acid when he opened it.
Blew up hundreds of meat trucks
Destroyed meat inside supermarkets
Set down homemade bombs on the porches of businessmen with “links to” organizations they didn’t like
Attacked the director of an animal testing lab with pick-axes
Kidnapped a man and burned ALF into his back, threatening him not to tell the police
Firebombed a laboratory and set a bomb on the porch of a 70 year old woman, which fortunately, did not explode.
Stole the body of a dead woman out of her grave and kept it as hostage (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/may/12/animalwelfare.topstories3)

Earth First!:

Spike trees with metal rods so that the chains of loggers’ chainsaws would snap and kill them

ELF (Earth Liberation Front):

Burned down a ranger station
Spiked trees with metal rods
Burned down a ski resort
Destroyed power lines
Burned down logging headquarters
Burned down a SUV dealership
Set fire to Michigan State University
Set fire to logging equipment
Destroyed radio towers because they think “radio waves are dangerous”
Released minks from fur farms (we all know how well that goes, right?)
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/10/24/mink-slaughter-dozens-of-baby-ducks-after-extremists-set-free-500-animals-from-b-c-fur-farm/
http://clikhear.palmbeachpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/a30minks1.jpg



Are these the people you really want to support and identify yourself with..??

Like I said, Animal Welfarists do it ALL THE TIME.

Heck, by doing so, you pretty much ARE saying "Humans HAVE to eat meat." Like I said, whether we eat meat is optional.

Actually, "Animal Welfarists" don't give two ****s about animals. The ones I've seen don't push against the "declawing of cats" or go against violent animal bloodsports. All they EVER do is talk about how wolves should be hunted to extinction, try to keep their hands clean by blaming an extinction on poachers even when it was legal to hunt an animal, support ANYTHING that involves killing animals, whether it be needlessly or not (That includes trapping, taxidermy, animal testing, fur, etc.), will find ways to demonize TRULY humane alternatives (Like the classic "Fake fur doesn't decompose" as if people are just going to throw their faux-fur coat in the middle of a forest), treat veganism like a crime, and to top it all off, support ONE ANIMAL AND ONE ANIMAL ONLY: Humans. They will do anything to excuse human convenience and pretend humans are oh-so serene and oh-so misunderstood. No, we are NOT misunderstood creatures. Humans, as a whole, DESERVE the hate. That doesn't mean we should kill humans, just that there are good reasons that people dislike them, and those reasons grow daily. And by the way, their definition of "humane" and a normal person's definition are two different things, as anything involving slow and painful death could STILL potentially be called "humane" by "Animal Welfarists."

So? Some activists DO do terrible things, but compared to the human-loving misothropic Eco-terrorists that are the quote/unquote "Animal Welfarists," I still side with animal rights. That doesn't make me a villain and it does NOT mean I support a lot of those things done by a few animal groups, it just means I'd rather associate myself with REAL animal lovers than those who PRETEND to be ones.

I would show you some examples, but I am already in enough trouble with scum like them and would rather spend the last bit of respect and decency I have for them trying desperately to ignore the existence of evil people like them. I can say, however, you DEFINITELY seem to be one of those people. And if you're not, I implore you to prove me wrong. Tell me ways we can help NON-HUMAN animals in the environment THAT DON'T INVOLVE KILLING THEM OR PUTTING THEM BELOW HUMAN CONVENIENCE.

Rory
08-02-2014, 09:12 AM
alternatives to supporting animal slaughter (and by extension environmental damage, water depletion, etc.)

Lets be fair and not ignore the significant negative environmental damage that occurs with producing many non-meat crops, too. It goes both ways when we're talking about mass production, no matter what the product is.

mythil
08-02-2014, 10:05 AM
Lets be fair and not ignore the significant negative environmental damage that occurs with producing many non-meat crops, too. It goes both ways when we're talking about mass production, no matter what the product is.

When over 80% of farm land in the world is used for the feeding of factory farm animals then yes. When bio-diverse ecosystems are destroyed for more grazing land and land to grow soy and corn to feed factory farmed animals, yes. When fishing boats have started to deplete the ocean to the point where more and more fish species are becoming extinct yes.

If you're a vegan/vegetarian in this thread, I just urge you to just drop it. This isn't the place for us and I suggest we stick to our own and really not interact, it only starts arguments. If you have a local alliance, stick to them, or a larger global one. Heck my local one feels that the things people have posted here are uncalled for, so I'll stick to them instead.

If you're in London for vegfest I will see you there.

Benny Bunnycorn
08-02-2014, 10:21 AM
Not to mention rats and bugs killed accidentally by farm tools, or killed by poisons used to protect crops =/= the billions of animals bred for slaughter each year.

Rory
08-02-2014, 11:19 AM
When over 80% of farm land in the world is used for the feeding of factory farm animals then yes. When bio-diverse ecosystems are destroyed for more grazing land and land to grow soy and corn to feed factory farmed animals, yes. When fishing boats have started to deplete the ocean to the point where more and more fish species are becoming extinct yes.

If you're a vegan/vegetarian in this thread, I just urge you to just drop it. This isn't the place for us and I suggest we stick to our own and really not interact, it only starts arguments. If you have a local alliance, stick to them, or a larger global one. Heck my local one feels that the things people have posted here are uncalled for, so I'll stick to them instead.

Your inability to have a discussion without getting defensive does not constitute an argument on my part. Someone who is confident in their choices has no reason to get defensive when they're up for discussion. Have I once said I disapprove of your choices? Have I once said they are wrong? Have I once said you should follow the way I do things? I was a strict vegetarian for 8 bloody years, it's not like I have no right to my opinions. I never once opened my mouth to meat eaters saying they were wrong, I always co-existed peacefully by keeping my choices to myself. And eventually, I decided that choice was wrong for myself, and I transitioned quietly back.

No, all I'm doing is offering counterpoints to things being said, without getting defensive about it like it's some sort of personal attack. News flash: I'm not attacking you, nobody is attacking you. Cut the goddamn theatrics out and have a discussion like someone with an ounce of maturity, instead of saying "I'm leaving" and then coming back over and over to wax on about how oppressed you are.

Also, implying I'm going to power trip because of my staff association on the site is uncalled for. You can ask any user here about my style of moderation and the respect that I give to all of our users, and I would never overstep my bounds, especially not for something as petty as this.

mythil
08-02-2014, 12:08 PM
Your inability to have a discussion without getting defensive does not constitute an argument on my part. Someone who is confident in their choices has no reason to get defensive when they're up for discussion. Have I once said I disapprove of your choices? Have I once said they are wrong? Have I once said you should follow the way I do things? I was a strict vegetarian for 8 bloody years, it's not like I have no right to my opinions. I never once opened my mouth to meat eaters saying they were wrong, I always co-existed peacefully by keeping my choices to myself. And eventually, I decided that choice was wrong for myself, and I transitioned quietly back.

No, all I'm doing is offering counterpoints to things being said, without getting defensive about it like it's some sort of personal attack. News flash: I'm not attacking you, nobody is attacking you. Cut the goddamn theatrics out and have a discussion like someone with an ounce of maturity, instead of saying "I'm leaving" and then coming back over and over to wax on about how oppressed you are.

Also, implying I'm going to power trip because of my staff association on the site is uncalled for. You can ask any user here about my style of moderation and the respect that I give to all of our users, and I would never overstep my bounds, especially not for something as petty as this.

Fine, I'm not going to argue with you, not like you would listen to anything I or others say anyway. Just agree to ignore each other and go our separate ways. I find killing and using living things morally reprehensible. That is my stance. That's the last thing I'll say, to me the discussion is closed and I'll stay with my own group, you do what you want.

Fay V
08-02-2014, 12:32 PM
A classic. My response: Why does it matter? I'm not on a deserted island I'm in a well developed country where I have many, many alternatives to supporting animal slaughter (and by extension environmental damage, water depletion, etc.). To answer the question though I'd probably just commit suicide because fug that situation would be a bummer.

For the most part it doesn't, and it's not something to bring up if someone is just vegetarian. I bring it up with my roommates because we are ethicists and so it's to see the commitment to their argument (this is what we all do for a living so it's less that he's vegan and more, he has a position on something). One of them is vegan due to a rights based account, meaning that as humans there are certain things you can't do to us because we have rights, namely use someone as a means to an end. He argues animals feel pain therefore also have such rights. The reason to ask the "you are literally going to die otherwise" question is because with a rights based account there is no middle ground. We've also asked things like "well what about roadkill, or death by natural causes. What about utilizing abandoned resources (if you live near wild alpacas and they shed)" so on and so forth.

None of this invalidates his choice to be vegan. If he doesn't have an answer then one moves on. The only time his points are genuinely questioned is when we talk about honey, because he's on the fence with it, which affects the grocery shopping.


Like I said, Animal Welfarists do it ALL THE TIME.

Heck, by doing so, you pretty much ARE saying "Humans HAVE to eat meat." Like I said, whether we eat meat is optional.

Actually, "Animal Welfarists" don't give two ****s about animals. The ones I've seen don't push against the "declawing of cats" or go against violent animal bloodsports. All they EVER do is talk about how wolves should be hunted to extinction, try to keep their hands clean by blaming an extinction on poachers even when it was legal to hunt an animal, support ANYTHING that involves killing animals, whether it be needlessly or not (That includes trapping, taxidermy, animal testing, fur, etc.), will find ways to demonize TRULY humane alternatives (Like the classic "Fake fur doesn't decompose" as if people are just going to throw their faux-fur coat in the middle of a forest), treat veganism like a crime, and to top it all off, support ONE ANIMAL AND ONE ANIMAL ONLY: Humans. They will do anything to excuse human convenience and pretend humans are oh-so serene and oh-so misunderstood. No, we are NOT misunderstood creatures. Humans, as a whole, DESERVE the hate. That doesn't mean we should kill humans, just that there are good reasons that people dislike them, and those reasons grow daily. And by the way, their definition of "humane" and a normal person's definition are two different things, as anything involving slow and painful death could STILL potentially be called "humane" by "Animal Welfarists."

So? Some activists DO do terrible things, but compared to the human-loving misothropic Eco-terrorists that are the quote/unquote "Animal Welfarists," I still side with animal rights. That doesn't make me a villain and it does NOT mean I support a lot of those things done by a few animal groups, it just means I'd rather associate myself with REAL animal lovers than those who PRETEND to be ones.

I would show you some examples, but I am already in enough trouble with scum like them and would rather spend the last bit of respect and decency I have for them trying desperately to ignore the existence of evil people like them. I can say, however, you DEFINITELY seem to be one of those people. And if you're not, I implore you to prove me wrong. Tell me ways we can help NON-HUMAN animals in the environment THAT DON'T INVOLVE KILLING THEM OR PUTTING THEM BELOW HUMAN CONVENIENCE.

Honestly Benny at this point I'm going to ask that you either throw up some links or just hush on this point. Gamedog at least referenced actions that could be looked up, you on the other hand are forming a strawman so packed with emotional points that I'm half expecting it to devolve into a sobbing misanthropic rant about yahoos and how you long for the country of Houyhnhnms.

I'm not saying people are perfect or haven't done terrible things, but you are literally adding nothing to the discussion but some over exaggerated villain to justify your own misanthropic rants while you are literally doing absolutely nothing to help any of the situations you're bitching about. If you are concerned that much then talk to your parents about going vegetarian. Go volunteer at a local no kill shelter and help curb wild pet populations. Do some research into the multiple groups that are trying to help farmers deal with wolves and coyotes without killing them, or trying to help wolf populations, or trying to protect wild game from poaching.
This is the age of the internet, you don't even have to be near something to help out. Fuck I still help out the Raptor Rehabilitation center from my college town 1500 MILES AWAY.

Seriously stop with this "animal welfarists are teh ebiliest, i hate people" nonsense when 1. you have no solid reference to any of this shit you're complaining about. 2. Your own attempt at something you apparently believe in was "I want to not eat meat but my parents won't let me" and that's it. Do some research into nutrition. Look up awesome vegan recipes. maybe you can't cut meat out entirely but maybe you can get your family to try more vegan stuff. 3. You are constantly talking about how you don't like people and how people do terrible cruel things, but I have never seen any indication that you do anything at all to help things. You know what's worse than sitting on the internet and thinking it's okay to use animals? Sitting on the internet and thinking it's not but doing nothing otherwise. At least with the first the person doesn't see a wrong in it. The second sees something wrong then goes along with the structure anyway buying in to all of the bad that happens. It doesn't matter how loudly you protest a thing you don't like, if you aren't actually doing anything about it then you are at least passively responsible for it as well.


When over 80% of farm land in the world is used for the feeding of factory farm animals then yes. When bio-diverse ecosystems are destroyed for more grazing land and land to grow soy and corn to feed factory farmed animals, yes. When fishing boats have started to deplete the ocean to the point where more and more fish species are becoming extinct yes.

If you're a vegan/vegetarian in this thread, I just urge you to just drop it. This isn't the place for us and I suggest we stick to our own and really not interact, it only starts arguments. If you have a local alliance, stick to them, or a larger global one. Heck my local one feels that the things people have posted here are uncalled for, so I'll stick to them instead.

If you're in London for vegfest I will see you there.

Honesty dude, that's not the way to go about things. Discussions are not a bad thing, disagreements will happen. Basically this entire time as soon as someone wasn't ready to kiss vegetarian ass you've been on the defensive about it. If all you want is a hugbox then yes, leave, but don't try to start some theatrical walk out. "stick to our own kind" is how people end up believing things that just are not true, like humans are biologically herbivores, or that broccoli has the same calories by ounce as steak.

If you are going to leave, then leave, but people can have fine conversations between vege/vegan and nonvege. Hell Sassysloth has been lovely, he should get a gold star. He's brought up good points and responded to people well without throwing a fit.

mythil
08-02-2014, 12:43 PM
If you are going to leave, then leave, but people can have fine conversations between vege/vegan and nonvege. Hell Sassysloth has been lovely, she should get a gold star. She's brought up good points and responded to people well without throwing a fit.

I would have but it's very hard for me to drop anything once I've been addressed.

To be honest, no amount of apologising would end anything here. I don't like the attitudes of three people here, that's fine, happens and I'll just avoid them. If someone outside of the internet heard me talking about vegan things and said "Hay, here is this blog that says one of the things you based your life off of was rubbish". I'm reticent about even posting this because I know someone is going to take issue with it. But whatever, people don't like me, I don't like them and that's the whole of it. Just annoyed that it got to that point when I just wanted to make a community for people of similar lifestyles.

Fay V
08-02-2014, 12:58 PM
I would have but it's very hard for me to drop anything once I've been addressed.

To be honest, no amount of apologising would end anything here. I don't like the attitudes of three people here, that's fine, happens and I'll just avoid them. If someone outside of the internet heard me talking about vegan things and said "Hay, here is this blog that says one of the things you based your life off of was rubbish". I'm reticent about even posting this because I know someone is going to take issue with it. But whatever, people don't like me, I don't like them and that's the whole of it. Just annoyed that it got to that point when I just wanted to make a community for people of similar lifestyles.

Honestly that's life. For all your special snowflake commentary on the other thread you have just demonstrated all of that behavior.
You pointed out a source, someone brought up it isn't accurate. Rather than be an adult and ignore it, or better yet find a counter point you've thrown a hissy fit and insisted that it's better to stick with people that entirely agree with your point already. You pressed so hard that it was "peer reviewed" well that's what peer review is, that's how information works. You present a position and people will present a counter point, because in the end that means that bad points and bad information are removed and only the strong points survive.

If you honestly can not handle people questioning your life choice at all, then yes it is best for you to leave and hang out with like minded people that will not question your thoughts.

Again you're allowed to have your group, no one stopped that, no one will stop that, no one can force you to be a meat eater and you won't be banned from here for arguing for veganism, but you also won't be free from neutral disagreement, because that's life.

Benny Bunnycorn
08-02-2014, 04:49 PM
If you want me to provide examples of animal welfarist scum, look up Cynpai, Sulfide, Kuwaizer, Little-Rolling-Bean, Asmilling-Malice, just a few examples of AWFUL people who pretend to care about animals when all they ever do is support their deaths! I tried my hardest not to reference these people, but if you SERIOUSLY needed the examples, look them up and tell me they give two fucks about animals. I'm probably going to have them ride my ass for bringing them up, too, but honestly I don't even care anymore. (I'd link to them manually but DA is acting funky right now.) And it's not just them, I meet people like them REGULARLY.

You and everyone else have been treating Mythril like shit when he hasn't even done ANYTHING! He's just trying to talk about vegetarianism, but NO! You people are CONSTANTLY bullying him because he does not agree with a bunch of statements that pretty much translate into "You HAVE to eat meat!" If you TRULY respected veganism, you would NOT do everything in your power to refute it. You say "oh, let people eat what they want," and yet that isn't how ANY OF YOU are truly acting at all.

You have no idea what I do, Fay V. I do whatever I can, personally. I clean up trash a few times a year. I donate to charities when I can. I spread awareness when there's nothing else I can do. I look up facts on animals regularly to learn ways I can contribute to their actual welfare. I don't buy pets from Petco or other big-chain corporations. And when I'm older, I do hope I can volunteer at a no-kill shelter. Honestly, I do what very little I CAN do to help animals. But some things are out of my power, and they're out of most people's too. We all wish we could just clone extinct species, clean rivers with thoughts, and quit meat cold turkey, but in reality we cannot.

How about we ALL shut up and just let people eat what they want. If a person's a vegetarian, let them be one instead of telling them why it's wrong.


Your inability to have a discussion without getting defensive does not constitute an argument on my part. Someone who is confident in their choices has no reason to get defensive when they're up for discussion. Have I once said I disapprove of your choices? Have I once said they are wrong? Have I once said you should follow the way I do things? I was a strict vegetarian for 8 bloody years, it's not like I have no right to my opinions. I never once opened my mouth to meat eaters saying they were wrong, I always co-existed peacefully by keeping my choices to myself. And eventually, I decided that choice was wrong for myself, and I transitioned quietly back.

Honestly, he has a right to be defensive, because all you guys have done have basically told him he's wrong. You may think of it as "providing facts and arguments" but in reality, you really are just saying "Vegetarianism is evil."

Rory
08-02-2014, 05:14 PM
Honestly, he has a right to be defensive, because all you guys have done have basically told him he's wrong. You may think of it as "providing facts and arguments" but in reality, you really are just saying "Vegetarianism is evil."

Your lack of reading comprehension is consistently appalling. Every word you type is just more and more proof of this. To pull out "vegetarianism is evil" out of the things I have said is just delusional, I have no more time to waste on you aside from this post.

Fay V
08-02-2014, 05:23 PM
Honestly I'm just going to close this as it's just become emotional defensiveness versus any useful discussion. Should anyone wish to contune talking about the merits or misinformation around environmentalism, veganism, hunting, trapping, whatever then a new thread can be made.