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View Full Version : Search by popularity [Suggestion]



Stenveel
01-17-2014, 04:52 AM
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2198180/weasyl.jpg

Why do we need search by popularity:
For the quality of results. It's not a secret that there are much more low quality art, then the good ones. And when we search and see a lot of low quality scraps, that you even don't what to look at, we just close that site and move on to FA ><

So it's THE MOST important feature in the search. For example DeviantArt, FurAffinity, InkBunny and SoFurry have that feature.

Please, DO NOT ignore that issue we need the action!

FlynnCoyote
01-17-2014, 07:16 AM
Stuff like this is why struggling rising artists get overlooked and discouraged to the point of quitting. A new member with genuine talent can go unnoticed for months or years because nobody ever finds out about them with a feature like this.

I'm not saying I'm gonna boycott the site if it's implemented, but I am going to say if you do please don't make it the default for the site like dA does.

Nightpaws
01-17-2014, 07:32 AM
Stuff like this is why struggling rising artists get overlooked and discouraged to the point of quitting. A new member with genuine talent can go unnoticed for months or years because nobody ever finds out about them with a feature like this.

I'm not saying I'm gonna boycott the site if it's implemented, but I am going to say if you do please don't make it the default for the site like dA does.

I have to agree with this. Sorting by popularity skews view counts and the most popular images to start with get so many views and favorites from being on page one that they end up stuck there forever despite better art existing elsewhere.

xarg
01-17-2014, 09:03 PM
Stuff like this is why struggling rising artists get overlooked and discouraged to the point of quitting. A new member with genuine talent can go unnoticed for months or years because nobody ever finds out about them with a feature like this.

I'm not saying I'm gonna boycott the site if it's implemented, but I am going to say if you do please don't make it the default for the site like dA does.

Do keep in mind that while implementing something like this might seemingly be a disservice to "struggling rising artists", it would be of much benefit to impatient and casual browsers, who use the site just to look at art. It is no secret that the general perceived quality of art generally correlates with the amount of public attention.

My point above is that if the site makes browsing popular art difficult, it will easily alienate a large proportion of the potential userbase who would use the site only to browse and appreciate art, rather than publishing themselves. They have a very different set of needs and likes when it comes to features that the site provides. These people, however, are the ones that spend the majority of their time on the site looking for new art, thus giving "struggling rising artists" more of a chance to be noticed and seen through word-of-mouth advertisement.


Sorting by popularity skews view counts and the most popular images to start with get so many views and favorites from being on page one that they end up stuck there forever despite better art existing elsewhere.

This is just a matter of implementation. "Popularity" as a scalar measure is very much open to interpretation and any good search algorithm would be able to take into account the view-inflation form being highly rated for a long time. The problem that you are describing is very apparent in a naive implementation, yes. A good implementation will promote change and variety in the top lists. Maybe it should be more of a "Popular in the last x amount of time".

Anyway, hiding popular posts from users will not make anyone happy. It won't give other pictures but marginally more views, and random browsers will just be frustrated over time.

Reshy
01-18-2014, 01:16 AM
I'd much rather a feature that finds me content within my gambit of interests automatically. Like a 'Weasyl Digest' of sorts. This means I can find new artists without a lot of traction drawing art I'd find favorable. Though this would require a favorite/hate system like Sofurry has to work.

piņardilla
01-18-2014, 01:47 AM
Signing on in agreement that a rank-by-popularity option only serves to hurt the artist community.

Tiger
01-18-2014, 01:54 AM
I'm not speaking for staff when I say this, this whole post is just my personal opinion. But I personally don't think this would be a positive feature. I don't browse looking for art that a lot of other people like, I want to look for art that -I- will like. I also don't think an impatient browser would be deterred from looking at art if the immediate search results aren't ones that already have a ton of views and favs. I think a system like this would not be beneficial for the people browsing or the majority of the artists who post here.

Willow
01-18-2014, 02:08 AM
Nevermind that the needs of a browser are, in my opinion, almost secondary to the needs of the artist given that this is an art site and not a search engine.

I really don't like popularity features to begin with as they seem a bit needless.

I'd rather have features that better help expose more lesser known artists instead of putting the spotlight on people who already get enough exposure.

AndiGreyScale
01-18-2014, 02:43 AM
I also would like it if we stayed away from the "search by popular" option because then lesser known artists will just get over looked. It's one the features I've always hated about DA.

Edit: In fact, I like the way the search function works just as it is now.

Hewge
01-18-2014, 02:47 AM
Lame.

TealMoon
01-18-2014, 02:51 AM
An image's quality can usually be determined by the thumbnail. Just ignore the ones that are not up to the "standard" of quality that you like.

Personally I wouldn't like to see this feature.

FlynnCoyote
01-18-2014, 03:00 AM
I'd rather have features that better help expose more lesser known artists instead of putting the spotlight on people who already get enough exposure.

I know forums have an option that allow unanswered threads to be listed and provides links.

It would be interesting if such a feature could also be implemented on the main site. That is something I would support.

weykent
01-18-2014, 03:41 AM
if you don't mind, could you add this to our bug tracker? <https://redmine.weasyl.com/projects/weasyl>

this is brand new and just starting to get filled with issues; it'll be much easier than using the forums.

Aster
01-18-2014, 06:26 AM
Sort by Newest = Lots of shitty art
Sort by Popular = Only the most popular submissions get viewed

Between the two, I prefer Sort By Newest. I like to discover new artists, throw them into my watchlist, and get spammed with gorgeous artworks. Rinse and repeat as needed.

However, life ain't black and white. There are more than these two options...
Recently Popular: The best submissions of the day/week/whatever
Undiscovered: ā la deviantArt. Some fancy-shmancy feature that finds good artworks that haven't got much love yet

Both of those are nice compromises, and I wouldn't mind seeing the option for one of them in my settings. I still prefer "Newest" as default though.

Nightmare
01-18-2014, 09:31 AM
The only thing "popular" searches bring up is porn. A lot of the time it has nothing to do with good art, but the Flynn summed it up pretty well.

xarg
01-18-2014, 10:17 AM
I love how all of you people seem to think that it would be an absolute exclusive choice between the options, that if one gets implemented the other gets removed. It doesn't have to be like that, the more tools and methods that there are to discover, the more it encourages to look.



Sort by Newest = Lots of shitty art
Sort by Popular = Only the most popular submissions get viewed
Recently Popular: The best submissions of the day/week/whatever
Undiscovered: ā la deviantArt. Some fancy-shmancy feature that finds good artworks that haven't got much love yet


All of these have their pros and cons. I don't see why all of these could not co-exist in the system and let people choose which method of discovery they want to employ.

The amount of hostility that comes up from some of these responses, I could almost think that you have some resentment towards people more popular than you, jealosy maybe even...

autogatos
01-18-2014, 05:13 PM
Personally I like the idea of having a variety of browsing options, as Aster suggested. That way people can choose what they want to see at any given time.

I don't really find "sort by popular" listings discouraging. I find them to be good motivation for improvement.

piņardilla
01-18-2014, 05:27 PM
Personally I like the idea of having a variety of browsing options, as Aster suggested. That way people can choose what they want to see at any given time.

I don't really find "sort by popular" listings discouraging. I find them to be good motivation for improvement.

...until your improvement fails to be noticed due to a lack of current popularity.

Willow
01-18-2014, 05:36 PM
The amount of hostility that comes up from some of these responses, I could almost think that you have some resentment towards people more popular than you, jealosy maybe even...
I'm actually not sure how you figure people are being hostile or resentful simply for being opposed to the idea.

Rory
01-18-2014, 05:49 PM
I don't believe that having more options is ever inherently a bad thing, but I would absolutely not making sorting by popularity the default if it were to be added. As a community at Weasyl, we have to ask ourselves what are we striving for, and how do we meet the needs of the most users at once? Many of us are struggling artists, musicians, and authors, just hoping for some stray views when we upload and trying our best to advertise ourselves simply so we can improve our craft. Others wish to use the website for income through commissions, and their popularity would only help them achieve that end. Then you have people who simply wish to consume what is produced. For better or worse, a balance needs to be established.

Whether a sort by popularity is positive or negative to the community as a whole, people will fall into their habits one way or another. I would not use it if implemented, but again, given certain modifying parameters, I think it could have its place.

Sarukai
01-18-2014, 07:12 PM
I think this is a horrible idea for the less-popular artists. They would get constantly overshadowed by those more-well known if this sort of feature was implemented into Weasyl. Most viewers would probably have this put on by default if they could and talented artists would never get the attention they deserve.

I would like a "trending artist" option instead as a better alternative to pick up artists who aren't well known but truly talented for our viewing purposes. It would be less rigged by the more well known but will also give the rightful attention to those starting out that need it.

AndiGreyScale
01-18-2014, 08:00 PM
The amount of hostility that comes up from some of these responses, I could almost think that you have some resentment towards people more popular than you, jealosy maybe even...

No one was being hostile, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't insinuate that we're "jealous" just because some of us do not want a "search by popular" function.

Disagreeing with the OP's idea does not = hostility or jealousy.

Not cool.

piņardilla
01-18-2014, 08:23 PM
I think this is a horrible idea for the less-popular artists. They would get constantly overshadowed by those more-well known if this sort of feature was implemented into Weasyl. Most viewers would probably have this put on by default if they could and talented artists would never get the attention they deserve.

I would like a "trending artist" option instead as a better alternative to pick up artists who aren't well known but truly talented for our viewing purposes. It would be less rigged by the more well known but will also give the rightful attention to those starting out that need it.

A trending artist search could be nice if it weighted current popularity against historical popularity so that it favored less-known artists that recently uploaded something really nice.

Matt
01-18-2014, 08:44 PM
A trending artist search could be nice if it weighted current popularity against historical popularity so that it favored less-known artists that recently uploaded something really nice.

That could be a neat idea. Dunno what would go into the algorithm, let alone how it could potentially be abused, but that's certainly something worth trying to substantiate. Not sure we'd be close to implementing that kind of thing in the near future though.

Onnes
01-18-2014, 08:46 PM
Consider the problem of browsing/searching from an actual new user perspective. And by new user I don't mean someone simply moving from another similar site to this one, taking all of their community and organizational knowledge with them. If the only option is to see everything in a given category or tag selection sorted by date -- which, for a new user, is no better than a random ordering -- then they are essentially doomed to slowly construct an empirical study of Sturgeon's Law. There should be some ordering that showcases the best the site has to offer at better than random odds.

I doubt a straight popularity ordering would be the best single option; it would be fairly static on one side and largely random on the other, making it poor for discovery purposes. That being said, I personally would prefer options to order by any available measure just on principle.

xarg
01-18-2014, 09:14 PM
Consider the problem of browsing/searching from an actual new user perspective. And by new user I don't mean someone simply moving from another similar site to this one, taking all of their community and organizational knowledge with them. If the only option is to see everything in a given category or tag selection sorted by date -- which, for a new user, is no better than a random ordering -- then they are essentially doomed to slowly construct an empirical study of Sturgeon's Law. There should be some ordering that showcases the best the site has to offer at better than random odds.

I doubt a straight popularity ordering would be the best single option; it would be fairly static on one side and largely random on the other, making it poor for discovery purposes. That being said, I personally would prefer options to order by any available measure just on principle.

This. So much of this.

I don't understand why anyone else can't see it from this perspective.

Sarukai
01-18-2014, 10:36 PM
A trending artist search could be nice if it weighted current popularity against historical popularity so that it favored less-known artists that recently uploaded something really nice.

That's exactly what I was thinking with the idea! Good work deserves attention. Such a feature will benefit good submissions, irrelevant of popularity beforehand. I also feel it would be a large self-esteem boost to the surprise of artists who do that well. Motivating them to preform at that level and potentially increase the overall quality of art displayed on the site.

piņardilla
01-19-2014, 02:51 AM
This. So much of this.

I don't understand why anyone else can't see it from this perspective.

It's not that I want to make for a frustrating user experience. Understand, though, that a "search by popularity" feature is essentially equivalent to "ignore unpopularity" which is a bad thing for up-and-coming artists.

xarg
01-19-2014, 04:12 AM
It's not that I want to make for a frustrating user experience. Understand, though, that a "search by popularity" feature is essentially equivalent to "ignore unpopularity" which is a bad thing for up-and-coming artists.

That is a ridiculous exaggeration based on nothing more than FUD. You live in a world of delusion where suddenly all the people would only stare at the first page of the most popular results if this was implemented. Even moreso you live in a world of delusion where cursing artists to be hidden under a sea of mediocrity is somehow supposed to be a good thing for them. You say you are trying to act on the agenda of still undiscovered stars, but in your fear of letting anyone soar out of the flock, you are essentially dooming them to never shine out to anyone but the people who have ALREADY found them.

I should add that this is something that will affect people who stumble upon the site and think about joining. This is something that will affect the public image of the site and it is something that will affect the way people either adopt or forget about it, because discovery and self promotion were too difficult or outright impossible.

Fay V
01-19-2014, 04:20 AM
Guys, please keep the discussion civil. Staff is reading the points of view that everyone is posting, but getting worked up isn't really helping anyone. We don't really need hyperbole, insults, or degrading other people's viewpoints in this discussion.
It's great that you guys are discussing and we've already seen some great ideas, but please don't get too wrapped up in the ideas so as to resort to bashing the other opinions in the thread.

Aster
01-19-2014, 05:21 PM
Consider the problem of browsing/searching from an actual new user perspective. [...] If the only option is to see everything in a given category or tag selection sorted by date [...] then they are essentially doomed to slowly construct an empirical study of Sturgeon's Law. There should be some ordering that showcases the best the site has to offer at better than random odds.
While this is true, I would just like to point out that a very large percentage of the fandom has already gone through this exact scenario, myself included. When I joined, I knew nothing about furry art sites or artists, and started my FA experience with no one to watch. Slowly, I picked through the utter crap on the homepage and eventually managed to build up a Watchlist full of people posting awesome art.

But yes, I would still like to see some hybrid "sort by semi-Popular" feature implemented, if possible, as I stated a page or so ago.

xarg
01-19-2014, 06:17 PM
Slowly, I picked through the utter crap on the homepage and eventually managed to build up a Watchlist full of people posting awesome art.

But it shouldn't have to be like this for people who seek to join the community while being complete outsiders with no ties. It's easy to ignore the woes of newbies after having already found a place in the community, but those issues of taking the first steps will still be there. This is one decision that has to come from the staff... Whether or not the site is developed with welcoming new users with maximum ease of immersion in mind, or if it's going to be more about catering to the existing userbase. This is not completely related to the issue of the topic though, as the search functionality has it's uses for veteran users as well.

piņardilla
01-19-2014, 07:07 PM
But it shouldn't have to be like this for people who seek to join the community while being complete outsiders with no ties. It's easy to ignore the woes of newbies after having already found a place in the community, but those issues of taking the first steps will still be there. This is one decision that has to come from the staff... Whether or not the site is developed with welcoming new users with maximum ease of immersion in mind, or if it's going to be more about catering to the existing userbase. This is not completely related to the issue of the topic though, as the search functionality has it's uses for veteran users as well.

Alright, I have a "meet you halfway" suggestion:

Say every three months a "Best of [Season]" gallery is generated of the 25 or so most viewed/faved works in each rating category. This lets newcomers see a representation of the best Weasyl has to offer, but it keeps it from being just a "show me porn" feature, and the infrequency with which it updates keeps users from having a "popufurs only" daily search and hopefully allows lesser-known artists the opportunity to actually get sufficiently noticed to potentially make it onto a "Best Of" list.

Would that be acceptable to you?

AndiGreyScale
01-19-2014, 08:57 PM
I'm all for a hybrid/compromise search by popularity.

But please, I'd prefer it if we stayed away from a pure "search by popular" function. We'd just end up with the same problem DA has; the already established and popular artists get the most views and comments while everyone else struggles to be seen at all.

While networking helps, you can still end up being over looked even if you have decent art.

xarg
01-20-2014, 01:08 AM
Say every three months a "Best of [Season]" gallery is generated of the 25 or so most viewed/faved works in each rating category. This lets newcomers see a representation of the best Weasyl has to offer, but it keeps it from being just a "show me porn" feature, and the infrequency with which it updates keeps users from having a "popufurs only" daily search and hopefully allows lesser-known artists the opportunity to actually get sufficiently noticed to potentially make it onto a "Best Of" list.

My first thoughts are, is there a reason why it wouldn't be just a sliding timeframe that's dynamically generated? Even if it's "Best of Weasyl" from the past X months, it could still be updated every day/week. This would promote change in the works that get featured over time, instead of staring at the same submissions for extended periods. I'll touch on this further in the post.

Also everybody should keep in mind that the algorithms that define popularity or "Best of Weasyl" are still completely open to implementation. I would prefer not to see the lists be filled by straight on porn either. There are many ways to avoid this, the easiest choice being to limit the quota of each maturity rating to a certain maximum percentage in the featured gallery. Of course the listing should also adhere to the users allowed ratings, but there could also be a separate choice to not display adult pieces in the featured ones... after all the site is supposed to be PG.

"Popufurs Daily" can be avoided through allowing each artist to be featured only with a limited amount of pieces at a time and by including aspects such as the change in views/faves compared to the artist's average values as deciding factors in the featuring algorithm. Furthermore it doesn't have to sort pieces in any order according to views or anything like that, and actually in my opinion the order of the featured listing should be random.

These could be taken a step further by taking into account the community impact of people who have faved the works. This could lead into giving further attention to artists who have a low amount of followers or who have never been featured before, but have been faved by other highly skilled and popular users. Obviously I'm not as blind as to not see the potential for abuse in something like this, but that just has to be worked out of the system.

Now taking these factors and safeguards into account, the more pieces that you include in the featured gallery, the more artists have a chance to be noticed. I would probably go as far as starting out with 100-200 works at a time.

There's also things to be decided, such as if the listing should mix all media types together, literature and visual etc., or if there should be an option to browse the best of each type separately.