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Matt
01-15-2014, 04:07 AM
Does anyone else watch professional wrestling? I mean, you guys seem pretty cool so I imagine you all do, but I've not seen a lot of implicit YES chants anywhere, nor has "Dean Ambrose" shown up when I've searched for his name on the forum every half hour for the last year. No excuses.

Are you into it? Do you have a favorite? Are you going to watch the Royal Rumble next Sunday?

TangoDelahunt
01-15-2014, 04:40 AM
Wrestling seemed to have been stagnant since the Attitude Era in WWF/WWE. I remember growing up watching wrestling in the early eighties. All those small regional promotions were entertaining to watch growing up.

TealMoon
01-15-2014, 04:42 AM
I don't think I've EVER watched it.

Wolf-Bone
01-15-2014, 05:05 AM
It's pretty hard to remain a fan of a form of entertainment where it seems like every week or so someone you tuned in to watch, saw at a live show, bought action figures of and played as in video games dies. I agree with what Tango said about wrestling having declined since the Attitude Era. At the same time, looking back at said era, I realize that's where many of the seeds of the destruction of those lives and the business itself were sown. So I can't really be a fan of the new product because frankly it sucks, and I can't even really be nostalgic for the old product because it's kind of what led to all this bullshit. Another thing that's come to rub me the wrong way is how it seems like everyone in the business is a Republican, or worse, a Libertarian, or worse still, the worst kind of cynic. The kind that parlays their own career and having fucked it up into some kind of motivational speaker/evangelist role where, once again, they're just donning a persona and working the crowd to dupe the marks for their own personal gain.

Matt
01-15-2014, 05:47 AM
Wrestling seemed to have been stagnant since the Attitude Era in WWF/WWE. I remember growing up watching wrestling in the early eighties. All those small regional promotions were entertaining to watch growing up.

I kinda bring this up now because I feel like Pro Wrestling in general is the best, potentially better, than it was during the Attitude Era. Maybe I'm a poor judge because I watched WCW and never WWF during that time. Some of my favorite wrestling moments are WCW Chris Jericho being a beautiful, horrible prick, tearing up signs and doing his man of 1004 holds promo.

fUcTHmZ9luY

Right now there are more people I like watching and listening to than ever before. CM Punk has really done awesome since this promo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khd8FKvD7rI). Daniel Bryan is the most, in my mind, infectious guy (http://youtu.be/ttiGTC5B2gg?t=1m56s) in the industry since Stone Cold. I mean, his chant (http://youtu.be/ttiGTC5B2gg?t=3m21s), while basic, was his own creation and is now creeping beyond wrestling (http://youtu.be/biXaQk-TDJk?t=3m50s).

Plus you have video packages like this:
ScI3i2OGdbs
founded by a guy who can hold his own in the ring and on the mic.

And every (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyaYrPlU3T0)time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e17RiMwThNc)The Shield has a match it's awesome. And every (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqFQLB370pk)time (http://youtu.be/rSUkiIP4MuM)Dean Ambrose talks is good. I'm not sure you can fit more progression into a minute than he did in that second vid.


It's pretty hard to remain a fan of a form of entertainment where it seems like every week or so someone you tuned in to watch, saw at a live show, bought action figures of and played as in video games dies. I agree with what Tango said about wrestling having declined since the Attitude Era. At the same time, looking back at said era, I realize that's where many of the seeds of the destruction of those lives and the business itself were sown. So I can't really be a fan of the new product because frankly it sucks, and I can't even really be nostalgic for the old product because it's kind of what led to all this bullshit.

A lot of the stupid shit done during the Attitude Era and before was the kind of thing that lead to people people dying early (if you put your hands up when someone swings a chair at your head, you're a pussy, and so on). They've done pretty well at cleaning up the roster and banning in-ring things that lead to CTE or whatever else. It's safer entertainment than football now, certainly, and the WWE seems to do a lot more to reach out to their troubled former talent than football ever did before that recent massive lawsuit. [Disclaimer: Roger Goodell is gross]


Another thing that's come to rub me the wrong way is how it seems like everyone in the business is a Republican, or worse, a Libertarian, or worse still, the worst kind of cynic. The kind that parlays their own career and having fucked it up into some kind of motivational speaker/evangelist role where, once again, they're just donning a persona and working the crowd to dupe the marks for their own personal gain.

This is a bit strange to me. Libertarian Kane and Senate Republican Hopeful Linda McMahon aside, most any dude I've on the wrestling scene, WWE, Indie, elsewhere, seems strikingly liberal. Who do you have in mind? (Not DDP, hopefully. DDP Yoga is good.)

QT Melon
01-15-2014, 07:49 AM
I used to watch it with a passion when I was a kid and again early 2000's, but hearing the behind the scene stuff from Vinnie has really turned me off to it. I used to love watching ECW.

There was some entertainment with Lawlerisms (Jerry "The King Lawler")

but oh man...ECW that foul mouthed Joel Gertner just made my day.

Wow! Tripod still exists - http://dreamastanley.tripod.com/Kronic/id7.html

Also, I love The Boulder X3

chocomage
01-15-2014, 03:04 PM
I watched it off and on when I was younger. I had the pleasure of attending wrestle mania when it went to Seattle! I saw Shawn Michaels and Hulk Hogan. The only way that could have been better is if mankind was there.

I stopped watching after the WWE, WCW, ECW, whatever the lawsuits and mergers were.
Gotta hate those filler episodes :V

Tycho
01-15-2014, 03:24 PM
It's Testosterone Ballet. I don't consider myself a fan but I don't think less of other people for being fans. I enjoy the video games based on it, though.

Wolf-Bone
01-16-2014, 04:28 AM
Maybe I'm a poor judge because I watched WCW and never WWF during that time.

WCW actually had a lot going for it once the Monday Night Wars became a thing, and even for a brief period before then. They shot themselves in the foot in a major way though, giving guys like Hogan, Russo, Bischoff and former Kliq members way too much creative control. The NWO angle went on far longer than it needed to. 3-hour Nitros and Thunders didn't help either. It led to way too much filler content and strained even this (at the time) rabid fan's attention span. Still, it had pretty much the only solid cruiserweight division in any nationally televised wrestling promotion in North America to this day (granted, TNA's X-Division was a decent substitute for a time) and, when it did have memorable stables, like the NWO, LWO (Latino World Order) and the Four Horsemen, it was something WWE could never really duplicate.


A lot of the stupid shit done during the Attitude Era and before was the kind of thing that lead to people people dying early (if you put your hands up when someone swings a chair at your head, you're a pussy, and so on). They've done pretty well at cleaning up the roster and banning in-ring things that lead to CTE or whatever else. It's safer entertainment than football now, certainly, and the WWE seems to do a lot more to reach out to their troubled former talent than football ever did before that recent massive lawsuit. [Disclaimer: Roger Goodell is gross]

They're really only doing it to cover their asses and save face though. I know cynicism dictates that that's really the only reason anyone does anything good, and that it doesn't really matter the motive as long as the result is for the better. Perhaps that's true. But it doesn't undo the damage that's been done, or the guilt I, personally, feel for having been entertained at the expense of human lives. I know a lot of it also boils down to the fact that wrestling meant something to me growing up that was inevitably going to wear away with time; these newer, younger fans see something in the current wrestling scene that I don't and probably can't. I really hope the changes happening now are ultimately for the better and that if and when they grow out of it, it doesn't come with the disillusionment I've developed for it.


This is a bit strange to me. Libertarian Kane and Senate Republican Hopeful Linda McMahon aside, most any dude I've on the wrestling scene, WWE, Indie, elsewhere, seems strikingly liberal. Who do you have in mind? (Not DDP, hopefully. DDP Yoga is good.)

I was mostly referring to the culture and mentality of the business. They're legally independent contractors, and their contracts give them the shit end of the stick, with terms that put pretty much all the power in the promoter's hands and nothing in theirs except "the right to work somewhere else" - somewhere else that plays by exactly the same rules (or lack thereof). But at the same time, they have all the responsibilities of an employee for any other company, if not more. Things like Wellness Policies, where they even exist, are purely internally regulated (which is essentially as good as no regulation) and are selectively enforced. Every mouthpiece for the business, even the ones who extoll the virtues of such measures, still have to drop buzzwords in there like "Personal Responsibility" and "Personal Demons" as code for "the rigors of the lifestyle and the demands the company puts on its 'independent contractors' aren't the issue", because, again, "it's a free market and they always have the right to work somewhere else". It's a very conservative attitude. I don't think it's much coincidence that the content is often misogynistic, jingoist and anti-intellectual (think the feud between Scott Steiner and Chris Nowinski, or the entire character of Hassan - who, by the way, was released for playing out the fucking angle he was required to by creative after the backlash. Because, you know, "personal responsibility", or something).

QT Melon
01-16-2014, 01:47 PM
I wonder how many know if these guys get insured for healthcare given the amount of punishment they put their bodies through.

I remember often how little pay some of these guys would receive to be a jobber at a match. Drive miles only to get 20 bucks if that.

Sure the TV stars may make better income but that is few and far between.

Pine
01-16-2014, 02:07 PM
I remember watching it a lot when I was 7-8, back when it was WWF. Kane's still one of my favorite dudes.
I'm not trying to sound like the annoying "90's kid", but it isn't as entertaining as it used to be.

piņardilla
01-16-2014, 02:37 PM
This is a bit strange to me. Libertarian Kane and Senate Republican Hopeful Linda McMahon aside, most any dude I've on the wrestling scene, WWE, Indie, elsewhere, seems strikingly liberal. Who do you have in mind? (Not DDP, hopefully. DDP Yoga is good.)

Yeah, it seems that outside the ring, professional wrestlers are generally more intelligent and liberal than you'd expect. Mick Foley in particular is just an all-around awesome dude.

Matt
01-16-2014, 04:23 PM
Massive amounts of good points

Yeah, there's really nothing in there I can refute. Like, at all. It's mostly stuff I kinda gotta not think about in order to watch the performances. The industry itself is pretty bad, and while it is improving, it might just be improving out of necessity rather than best intentions.


I wonder how many know if these guys get insured for healthcare given the amount of punishment they put their bodies through.

I remember often how little pay some of these guys would receive to be a jobber at a match. Drive miles only to get 20 bucks if that.

Sure the TV stars may make better income but that is few and far between.

This does come off the back of Wolf-Bone's points. Colt Cabana on one of his podcasts (http://tsmradio.com/coltcabana/), can't remember which, talked about the trouble he had trying to get insurance. He classified himself as a 'performer' but apparently someone at the company knew who he was, and it screwed him. Even the WWE wrestlers are qualified as 'independent contractors' for insurance purposes.

Then there's stories how Jesse Sorenson broke his neck wrestling for TNA, they told him he'd have a 'job for life,' and then fired him earlier this year. Then Zema Ion had to crowdsource funds for medical treatment, something that Jake 'The Snake' Roberts and Scott Hall both had to do, even though they were massive stars at one point. I don't think it worked out for Ion, even if it did for Hall and Roberts.

Man, now I'm depressed.


Mick Foley

Much better.

Lucy Bones
01-16-2014, 04:29 PM
These days I'm just not interested in WWE and the like anymore. It's been a long time since they had good script writers and fight choreographers.

Wolf-Bone
01-16-2014, 05:18 PM
This does come off the back of Wolf-Bone's points. Colt Cabana on one of his podcasts (http://tsmradio.com/coltcabana/), can't remember which, talked about the trouble he had trying to get insurance. He classified himself as a 'performer' but apparently someone at the company knew who he was, and it screwed him. Even the WWE wrestlers are qualified as 'independent contractors' for insurance purposes.

Then there's stories how Jesse Sorenson broke his neck wrestling for TNA, they told him he'd have a 'job for life,' and then fired him earlier this year. Then Zema Ion had to crowdsource funds for medical treatment, something that Jake 'The Snake' Roberts and Scott Hall both had to do, even though they were massive stars at one point. I don't think it worked out for Ion, even if it did for Hall and Roberts.

Something I forgot to add earlier was that I think a lot of it is as much a problem with American culture as anything innate to wrestling culture. The insurance issue is a good example of something pretty much everyone gets fucked over by in the states. There's no reason a company the size of WWE couldn't have its own health/insurance plans, but of course, that'd cut into profits. Of course, there's also no reason these third party insurance companies couldn't insure people... Except for profits. That everyone wants to make money without spending it is hardly just a wrestling thing. Contrast that with someone like myself, who, after taxes and deductions, probably barely makes min. wage. Those deductions go towards things like health benefits, sick time, etc. Now, there's nothing particularly notable, honorable or important about my job, or at least my role. I work at a fucking call center doing basic tech support. Essentially, there's no good reason anyone who can use the internet/computers and has decent people skills can't do what I do. Ultimately, I, as a person, am worth less to the company than the damn phone system and database we use, yet they look out for us because, you know, it makes sense to invest in your workers and give them an incentive to stick around. I don't get how that same philosophy can't be applied to the kind of talent that is one of a kind. Every wrestler worth his salt is practically a brand unto himself. So how the shit are they more expendable than me?!


These days I'm just not interested in WWE and the like anymore. It's been a long time since they had good script writers and fight choreographers.

The only thing in wrestling that's really scripted is the promos, and even that is done off the cuff to a certain extent. There's a lot of planning made ahead of time. Or at least there's supposed to be. But the matches themselves typically boil down to the wrestlers bouncing ideas off each other before the match and maybe doing a practice run in the ring before the show. When you factor in all the last minute changes due to injuries, travel issues, no-shows or entire finishes being changed by creative, these guys are practically flying blind on a good day. It's a small miracle when any show isn't a complete disaster.

Of course, sometimes it can't be avoided. The match between Macho Man and Ultimate Warrior practically was choreographed, by Savage himself, because he didn't trust Warrior not to be a train wreck. Then you get incidents like Jeff Hardy V Sting where it wouldn't have needed anything more than for those two to just do what they do... And then Hardy gets high before the match and Sting has to put the spectacle out of its misery.

QT Melon
01-19-2014, 09:35 AM
Well don't forget that Japan wasn't exactly taking care of their wrestlers either. The stories Mick Foley had about those barb wire matches and injuries he went through - the owner was just like "here have a soda"...what a jerk :<