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Lucy Bones
04-11-2013, 01:50 PM
So how faggy do the Weasyl forums get? :B

Dost thou relate to a separate gender identity than the physical one you were given?

What are your thoughts on transgenderism?

Just a thread for the FtM and MtF fags like myself. :3

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Brace
04-11-2013, 04:20 PM
I think non-dysphoric trans people are annoying, and though I do my best to reserve judgement about whether their condition is real or self-inflicted, they tend to make it challenging for me.

Damian
04-11-2013, 04:44 PM
Oh boy, this should be interesting.

At best I'd say I'm more androgynous than anything. I don't particularly care one way or the other of pronouns or anything like that. I dunno, very hard to explain.

Tigercougar
04-11-2013, 04:57 PM
I'm female and like being that way, but I always like to try to poke around to see what the mindset of a man is. I empathize with straight guys' tribulations with dealing with my sex. :P

Damian
04-11-2013, 05:01 PM
I can't really get into the mindset of a female at all. If I do it's eluding me. I've often been told I'm not lady-like and I don't even know how ladies are supposed to act.

Fay V
04-11-2013, 05:32 PM
I can't really get into the mindset of a female at all. If I do it's eluding me. I've often been told I'm not lady-like and I don't even know how ladies are supposed to act.

I feel you there. Personally I view myself as female and always have, but i've always been viewed as a tomboy and have been asked about my choice of androgynous style by my more...feminine sister.
I don't really get it. Or I suppose I do and don't want it. It's the stereotype of the conveniently intelligent, cute, girl. Convenient in the sense of not being too smart, but smart enough to be interesting. Not being to needy, but needy enough to give a guy a purpose. it's that somewhat gentle push of that classic gender role.

I don't personally begrudge people that live that, though there are those that really get on my nerves, just, I've never been able to do that.

Lucy Bones
04-11-2013, 05:34 PM
The only people that get on my nerves are people who think gender identity has to have rules.

To me, people ought to be able to identify however they please, regardless of parts.

Brace
04-11-2013, 05:58 PM
I don't think it needs rules, just distinctions. Really, I think the entire gender identity discussion is a misnomer at least as far as it lumps transsexual and transgender people together. Transsexuality isn't about identity, it's about body. The fact that the identity part normally goes hand in hand is just a matter of convention, and I'm sure people who live up to that convention are generally healthier and better acclimated to society, but I don't think the relationship is inherent.

Lucy Bones
04-11-2013, 06:05 PM
Transsexuality isn't about identity, it's about body.

thisthisthisthisthis

There is a difference between transgender and transsexual. Someone who is transgender identifies as the other sex, but may or may not have treatment or surgery to achieve physical completeness. Someone who is transsexual is definitely going to get some surgery and treatment for it.

I myself am not completely transsexual, I'm kind of surgery-phobic and while I identify as a female, I don't see the need to have sexual reassignment. I see breasts as something that would just get in the way and be inconvenient, and to me a naturally formed penis probably works better than an artificial vagina.

I totally wish that I was born female, but I have what I have and I'm casual enough to just live with being a flat-breasted gal who has a dick.

Brace
04-11-2013, 06:18 PM
I'm not sure that you're transsexual at all. It's not even the disinterest in surgery, that's understandable, it's just the indifference with your present anatomy.

Lucy Bones
04-11-2013, 06:20 PM
I just don't think anatomy in general is very important.

Brace
04-11-2013, 07:37 PM
That's why you're not transsexual

Shane
04-11-2013, 08:43 PM
I don't think there is a scale or specific level of discomfort you have to feel before you're considered a "real" trans person. I'm a female-to-male transsexual and I'm not getting all surgeries available to me for personal reasons, and those personal decisions do not change what I am.

Damian
04-11-2013, 09:20 PM
I feel you there. Personally I view myself as female and always have, but i've always been viewed as a tomboy and have been asked about my choice of androgynous style by my more...feminine sister.
I don't really get it. Or I suppose I do and don't want it. It's the stereotype of the conveniently intelligent, cute, girl. Convenient in the sense of not being too smart, but smart enough to be interesting. Not being to needy, but needy enough to give a guy a purpose. it's that somewhat gentle push of that classic gender role.

I don't personally begrudge people that live that, though there are those that really get on my nerves, just, I've never been able to do that.

I get REALLY harped on by my mother because I don't fit the uber stereotype of dresses and fashion and purses. Especially purses which I really don't get.

Pockets. That's all I need. Wallet. Keys. Phone. All of these can fit in pockets. Now, what do I need a purse for? I have humored her once and lugged around a purse in middle school. It was annoying, cumbersome, and people kept trying to snatch it. Why on Earth would I have something that is so easily nabbed hold my valuables?
There's more to my rant about female stereotypes but I'll leave it at that.

tl;dr

Women don't make no damn sense to me.

Brace
04-11-2013, 10:27 PM
I don't think there is a scale or specific level of discomfort you have to feel before you're considered a "real" trans person. I'm a female-to-male transsexual and I'm not getting all surgeries available to me for personal reasons, and those personal decisions do not change what I am.

You don't need to get surgery, you just need to give a shit. That's a pretty low baseline and I don't think I'm being "elitist" by suggesting it.

Onnes
04-11-2013, 11:26 PM
The prior probability of this thread topic not going completely downhill must be negligible.

Lucy Bones
04-12-2013, 01:09 AM
I'm not transsexual, technically. Just transgendered.

Though it's all semantics, honestly. I have a girldick and I'm proud of it.

Well, not really proud. I just can't be assed to deal with it. Too expensive, too potentially painful, too traumatic for me.

I don't want any sort of cosmetic surgery of any kind. I'm only letting a doctor touch me with a blade if it's to save my life/limbs.

KumatoraKazooie
04-12-2013, 01:59 AM
I'm female both physically and mentally, though sometimes I wish I was male so I wouldn't have to deal with my period or have trouble clothes shopping.

Don't really know anyone transgender/transsexual personally but "Bunny" Bennet of Steam Powered Giraffe is a cool lady/person from what she does for her group and with the fans. She's also a great artist!

Rsyk
04-12-2013, 11:47 AM
This is a tricky one...

During the years in which I was coming to terms with my sexuality I definitely felt a lot of...discomfort with my body. I'm not entirely sure how much of that was the idea I had that only women should like men, or the issue I still have with gender roles insofar as relationships go. And that's actually something that I think about quite often. Almost anytime relationships are brought up actually. As far as my actual body goes?
Currently, whatever dissatisfaction I have with my own body usually lies in the way of my more masculine traits, which frustrate me often and a lot. But I just kinda figure that there are things that everyone dislikes about themselves, and right now I've not really the time nor money to start changing anything.

Soreiya
04-12-2013, 11:58 AM
I'm indifferent towards the whole gender identity thing. I don't consider myself to lean towards any group. I've never dated anyone and I doubt I ever will.

If I had the choice of what gender I would want to be, I would certainly choose male. Who in their right mind would want to deal with girl stuff?

Rsyk
04-12-2013, 12:26 PM
If I had the choice of what gender I would want to be, I would certainly choose male. Who in their right mind would want to deal with girl stuff?

In some cases I would prefer to.

TangoDelahunt
04-12-2013, 12:28 PM
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS_BQTjZ5T_zg_GB6pYJTDNrywLsJcrN H78-KzCaU-jTU4WVctY5g

- - - Updated - - -

Here's my two pennies on this topic.

As most of you know I'm dating Brace. I didn't even know what trans was until then. Well, not really know. I'm pretty ignorant about that sort of thing. When Brace is debating about it I feel like a dog listening to two physicists debating Dark Matter/Dark Energy or strangelets. I guess I'm too dumb to really grasp it.

I have never really been focused on gender. It just hasn't been an issue with me. I don't care about what is between someone's legs. I like people because of who they are. I guess i have gender blindness or something. I dunno.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I'll shut up now.


Sanita

Lucy Bones
04-12-2013, 03:57 PM
I think I'm strongly considering hormone replacement therapy in the future, when I have money and am a little older. I don't want surgery, but I think I do want to bring out my more secondary feminine physical traits.

Inq
04-12-2013, 08:27 PM
My parents had a hard enough time beating the stupid out of me, at the end of the day there wasn't the time to whallop any gender identity into me.
I don't have any problem with being male and couldn't care less about having the option to change, but when people start arguing with me about 'what it means to be a man' or when they start revealing certain expectations of me based on my gender, I instantly tune out. Usualy turning off to them completely.
Lately there is enough to deal with without worrying about something I could never control in the first place.

Lucy Bones
04-13-2013, 06:40 PM
As I weigh the idea of hormone therapy, more and more of my close friends come to me and say they support me in my choice. It's really cool, I'm happy to have such a backing from the people closest to me.

Shane
04-13-2013, 07:00 PM
As I weigh the idea of hormone therapy, more and more of my close friends come to me and say they support me in my choice. It's really cool, I'm happy to have such a backing from the people closest to me.

That's awesome. It's good that you have your friends as support.

I remember watching a video recently that showed the timeline of someone going through FFS. God, it was amazing to watch. @w@ Mind blowing.

Rsyk
04-13-2013, 10:49 PM
That's awesome. It's good that you have your friends as support.

I remember watching a video recently that showed the timeline of someone going through FFS. God, it was amazing to watch. @w@ Mind blowing.

It's interesting to watch how the expressions they have with the photos change over time. I'd noticed it before in the super public transition stories (Chaz Bono), but they get happier as things progress.

TigerBeacon
04-14-2013, 11:04 AM
Can't really say much in favor of the subject. Concern about gender identity is for those who are privileged with the time and money to pursue it. Otherwise, I think humanity has existed long enough that holding on to specific expectations based on gender is so outdated, yet I acknowledge that it still happens regardless. I suppose people have the biggest problem in the area of sexuality, where they have it in their minds that people's approach towards it is any of their damn business.

My confidence as a female is evident only in my attitudes towards those I have an attraction to. Otherwise, much of the conventions that people regard as 'feminine' are next to non-existent. I'm just...me. Whatever.

HiddenCinnamon
04-15-2013, 07:00 AM
I identify as female and am deeply dissatisfied with my body to the point where I attempt to completely avoid any human contact whatsoever and it's kind of grinding me away. However, I feel as if it may be a single problem among several, so I intend to come out to my family as soon as possible so I can make progress towards sorting things out.
I actually asked my friend to pester me after the 20th until I do something about it, so, um, wish me luck I guess.
I don't know how much better it will make my situation but I very much doubt it'll get any worse.

Mayhem
04-15-2013, 12:41 PM
Im straight and am happy with my body set up. Kinda out of place in the furry world it seems. I am not bi or gay at all and that seems to throw everyone for a loop for some reason.

I dont mind gay/fag/whatever you call em now. I just fight against the fact a lot of people are trying to make "furry" a "gay" thing when its not. Or the fact that people put so much emphasize on whether or not someone is gay or not. Yea I get it might be hard to come out or hard growing up but there are a lot of things hard about growing up and to be honest being gay isnt as bad as it was for my friends growing up. I emphasize with those that have it hard but the people who are drama queens over things that werent that bad ruin it for the people who had it hard. I dont really understand all this stuff about being all proud about it either. Same way if someone said they are proud to be black or mexican. After announcing it I ussually follow up with.......and?. I think there are a lot of people who go to such extremes for attention.
My best friend doesnt feel right with her body and I get that. She is my best friend and shes a dude in a womans body. Then again like a person who believes in himself she is going about doing what he feels necessary to correct the mistake made at birth in her own opinion. My besty and me both agree though on one thing. There are things you can change and things you cant. Everybody has to deal with that and it shouldnt be made into something its not. Growing up if you didnt have big tits as a girl it made you feel less. Poor guys with tiny tiny dicks had it hell. Dorky kids got beat up etc etc etc cliche etc. Its just another form of that coming to light.
I think todays society makes people conform to other peoples beliefs, which is hard for a lot of people that grew up in my time because we were taught to grow thicker skin and believe in yourself.

"All of you who are unhappy with your body I hope you are taking the steps to correct what you can, and for the things you cant correct I hope that you come to terms with that and learn to be happy. I know I did bitches" ~ Words by Vivian Cox (one of the hottest MtF in my area)

Tigercougar
04-15-2013, 05:38 PM
Im straight and am happy with my body set up. Kinda out of place in the furry world it seems. I am not bi or gay at all and that seems to throw everyone for a loop for some reason.

I dont mind gay/fag/whatever you call em now. I just fight against the fact a lot of people are trying to make "furry" a "gay" thing when its not. Or the fact that people put so much emphasize on whether or not someone is gay or not. Yea I get it might be hard to come out or hard growing up but there are a lot of things hard about growing up and to be honest being gay isnt as bad as it was for my friends growing up. I emphasize with those that have it hard but the people who are drama queens over things that werent that bad ruin it for the people who had it hard. I dont really understand all this stuff about being all proud about it either. Same way if someone said they are proud to be black or mexican. After announcing it I ussually follow up with.......and?. I think there are a lot of people who go to such extremes for attention.

It's how people cope. Pride movements exist not to be obnoxious, but to say to the world "we, the [minority group] will no longer tolerate being in the shadows of society and being treated like second-class citizens." If people are still clinging to the concept of pride in terms of their orientation, race, whatever, it's ultimately because said group is still not 100% accepted by the world. There are still lots of people that hate gays, and still lots of people that hate nonwhites. Until the hate goes away, if it ever does, the outspoken will always be there.

Mayhem
04-16-2013, 09:03 AM
You quoted my whole post but only picked out that one thing.

As for the pride thing even with that being said. A lot of people have changed and it has become more acceptable in a lot of places. But it will Never be accepted everywhere. People have their beliefs and wont change because thats just who they are. Same as I said before. At some point people have to accept that you will never get 100% of the world to accept it. Then again there are a lot of parts of the world who dont do the pride thing if we are talking about the world. Its not that it isnt or is accepted. Its a non issue. People either are or arent and people around them are individuals and either accept or dont accept it.

Rsyk
04-16-2013, 10:34 PM
Im straight and am happy with my body set up. Kinda out of place in the furry world it seems. I am not bi or gay at all and that seems to throw everyone for a loop for some reason.

I dont mind gay/fag/whatever you call em now. I just fight against the fact a lot of people are trying to make "furry" a "gay" thing when its not. Or the fact that people put so much emphasize on whether or not someone is gay or not. Yea I get it might be hard to come out or hard growing up but there are a lot of things hard about growing up and to be honest being gay isnt as bad as it was for my friends growing up. I emphasize with those that have it hard but the people who are drama queens over things that werent that bad ruin it for the people who had it hard. I dont really understand all this stuff about being all proud about it either. Same way if someone said they are proud to be black or mexican. After announcing it I ussually follow up with.......and?. I think there are a lot of people who go to such extremes for attention.
My best friend doesnt feel right with her body and I get that. She is my best friend and shes a dude in a womans body. Then again like a person who believes in himself she is going about doing what he feels necessary to correct the mistake made at birth in her own opinion. My besty and me both agree though on one thing. There are things you can change and things you cant. Everybody has to deal with that and it shouldnt be made into something its not. Growing up if you didnt have big tits as a girl it made you feel less. Poor guys with tiny tiny dicks had it hell. Dorky kids got beat up etc etc etc cliche etc. Its just another form of that coming to light.
I think todays society makes people conform to other peoples beliefs, which is hard for a lot of people that grew up in my time because we were taught to grow thicker skin and believe in yourself.

"All of you who are unhappy with your body I hope you are taking the steps to correct what you can, and for the things you cant correct I hope that you come to terms with that and learn to be happy. I know I did bitches" ~ Words by Vivian Cox (one of the hottest MtF in my area)

1. This is a gender identity thread. Not a thread for you to vent about how you feel out of place for being straight in the furry fandom. Take that somewhere else. The fact that you brought up sexuality in this kind of thread shows pretty clearly that you have no idea what you're talking about.
2. If your reaction to people with legitimate dsyphoria is "toughen up," you again, do not have any idea what you're talking about. That's a similar line of thought to telling people with depression to just "be happy." You're minimizing their problems and drawing a parallel to issues you've faced, when that comparison doesn't exist. Feeling as if you were born in the wrong body has little to nothing in comparison with being upset that you have a tiny dick. In a vacuum, one problem would still exist, the other would not.

Lucy Bones
04-17-2013, 05:03 AM
You quoted my whole post but only picked out that one thing.

As for the pride thing even with that being said. A lot of people have changed and it has become more acceptable in a lot of places. But it will Never be accepted everywhere. People have their beliefs and wont change because thats just who they are. Same as I said before. At some point people have to accept that you will never get 100% of the world to accept it. Then again there are a lot of parts of the world who dont do the pride thing if we are talking about the world. Its not that it isnt or is accepted. Its a non issue. People either are or arent and people around them are individuals and either accept or dont accept it.

Problem being, I can still be turned away from a job in most of the world for being the way I am.

That's where the issue lies.

SidFishes
04-17-2013, 08:05 PM
Dude, where I'm originally from, being a trans person can get you sexually assaulted and killed--and it was supposed to be one of the more "lgbt friendly" states. I know someone personally who ended up murdered because she chose the wrong bathroom. Just because you don't know of incidents like that, just because it's become more acceptable doesn't mean the minority should just shut up because the majority is getting sort of bored hearing about it. I've been confronted and harassed openly on the street, and I've dealt with death threats just for having the nerve to walk around and exist. I'm pretty sure there's still a lot of education and work to be done.

For that matter,


My best friend doesnt feel right with her body and I get that. She is my best friend and shes a dude in a womans body. Then again like a person who believes in himself she is going about doing what he feels necessary to correct the mistake made at birth in her own opinion. My besty and me both agree though on one thing. There are things you can change and things you cant. Everybody has to deal with that and it shouldnt be made into something its not. Growing up if you didnt have big tits as a girl it made you feel less. Poor guys with tiny tiny dicks had it hell. Dorky kids got beat up etc etc etc cliche etc. Its just another form of that coming to light.
I think todays society makes people conform to other peoples beliefs, which is hard for a lot of people that grew up in my time because we were taught to grow thicker skin and believe in yourself.

So your friend identifies as a male, but you're using female pronouns? I don't know if those were some really unlucky typos or what the situation is between you two, but if your friend is ftm I'm kind of offended on his behalf. You may not have intended it, but by using female pronouns, it makes it sound like you don't think he's actually a dude, that you don't actually think of him that way, and that you don't take his situation as seriously as it needs to be. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm just letting you know what that's communicating to me, again, if that wasn't a case of some unfortunate typos. The reason that is so bad is because you're essentially just highlighting this crappy, inescapable thing he's having to endure every day--the fact that he was born in the wrong body and physically he isn't male yet. If you're thinking it's something that just needs to be accepted and sucked up, I'd suggest you take a quick look at this http://www.livescience.com/11208-high-suicide-risk-prejudice-plague-transgender-people.html. If 41% of the trans population would rather die than try to live and be trans, believe you me, this stuff carries chronic emotional pain greater than what the average person can comprehend.

Bluh.

I actually really hate being a voice for the community, I don't do "trans pride" simply because it's an uncomfortable subject. But really, if you're cisgendered and you aren't getting denied employment, housing, or life itself please don't complain and act shut out by the community. If you feel like the minority, then you're briefly experiencing what it feels like for us to live everyday.

BACK ON TOPIC.

I've been on T for like, a year now. My case manager keeps asking me what it's like to have the privileges of a man, but since I look like, sound, and am treated like a 14 year old hoodlum boy, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to answer her question. Being trans sucks.

TigerBeacon
04-17-2013, 10:45 PM
What is it even supposed to mean not feeling properly physically assigned? What is it about gender that makes a person identify specifically as male or female? I don't want to go and think of stereotypical things like 'Cause this guy likes dresses and other dudes and loves the feel of breasts and a shaved vagina that he'd want one of his own to feel up all the time.'

I mean, the reason has to be something deeper than that, and...I don't know, besides the outward physical sex and a somewhat trend of mentality between genders, I don't understand what the distinction is since both genders have displayed that they can detach themselves from gender expectations.

Lucy Bones
04-17-2013, 11:09 PM
Well, in today's society, there are gender stereotypes and expectations. There's no escaping that. In a perfect world, we could have boys and girls, just human beings with various sexual organs that behave the way they want to behave. However, that's not what we have.

Brace
04-18-2013, 12:27 AM
What is it even supposed to mean not feeling properly physically assigned? What is it about gender that makes a person identify specifically as male or female? I don't want to go and think of stereotypical things like 'Cause this guy likes dresses and other dudes and loves the feel of breasts and a shaved vagina that he'd want one of his own to feel up all the time.'

I mean, the reason has to be something deeper than that, and...I don't know, besides the outward physical sex and a somewhat trend of mentality between genders, I don't understand what the distinction is since both genders have displayed that they can detach themselves from gender expectations.

It's nothing about gender. People like Lucy aren't dysphoric and should be ignored when it comes to this conversation. It's just physically uncomfortable.


Can't really say much in favor of the subject. Concern about gender identity is for those who are privileged with the time and money to pursue it.

I think you have your stereotypes mixed up. It's gays who are the rich ones.

Lucy Bones
04-18-2013, 12:29 AM
I'm not dysphoric?

Someone who feels intensely out of place being male isn't dysphoric?

Brace
04-18-2013, 12:31 AM
In a word, no. Let me know when you've attempted to castrate yourself or woken up crying because of your own body.

Lucy Bones
04-18-2013, 12:32 AM
Dysphoria (from Greek: δύσφορος (dysphoros), from δυσ-, difficult, and φέρειν, to bear) is a state of feeling unwell or unhappy; a feeling of emotional and mental discomfort as a symptom of discontentment, restlessness, dissatisfaction, malaise, depression, anxiety or indifference.


What you're describing isn't dysphoria, it's desperation.

Brace
04-18-2013, 12:39 AM
I'm impressed by the mental gymnastic you want to go through in order to have access to a label signalling defectiveness. I am pretty sure it means you are morally and mentally defective, instead of just biologically so. When I see this behavior from you it isn't endearing, it doesn't make me reconsider, it makes my prior assessment seem more obviously correct.

Lucy Bones
04-18-2013, 12:41 AM
I'm just kind of tired of you brushing me off as some lesser person, like I'm just some pervert because while I am gender dysphoric, I'm less emotional about it. Freaking out and trying to cut your junk off isn't a normal sign of gender dysphoria, it's a sign of temporary insanity.

Brace
04-18-2013, 12:43 AM
I don't see that there's anything wrong with being a pervert, just with being a pervert desperate to appropriate a disability in order not to feel like a pervert.

Lucy Bones
04-18-2013, 12:45 AM
See, now you're just making really rude assumptions about me, someone you hardly even know. I've been struggling with my gender identity since I was 6 years old, I kept labeling myself as male up until a few months ago because I was afraid of going against what society wants from me. Only recently have I started being completely honest with myself and the people around me about who I really am, and when I get reactions like yours, it makes me feel like my fears were very well-placed.

Brace
04-18-2013, 12:50 AM
If you're not full of shit then you're going to be afraid for the rest of your life one way or the other, might as well get used to it.

Lucy Bones
04-18-2013, 12:53 AM
I'm used to being afraid, just not of people of a similar dysphoric nature as myself.

Rsyk
04-18-2013, 06:06 AM
Can someone close this? It's quickly become toxic.

Lucy Bones
04-18-2013, 04:19 PM
Uhm, not really. People are having opposing views, not trying to kill each other.

There's still legitimate conversation to be had.

Taw
04-19-2013, 02:13 PM
Just going to post a general warning to you guys:

Do not turn this into a flame war, or an argument among each other. Don't throw insults at each other or disrespect anyone for their views on something. Keep things civil and don't try and make someone feel like crap on the basis that you don't agree with them.

Respect each other and just discuss the topic and your thoughts on it. No reason for it to become a heated discussion at all.

I'll monitor the thread when I can, and if it goes south then I will close it and issue out infractions as necessary.

AurumLutra
04-20-2013, 01:12 AM
The day the only thing I have to worry about in my life is whether I fit into society's prescribed gender roles as male or female is the day that I have NO good problems to worry about. Oddly enough, gender identity and gender roles in society often go hand in hand. And what people never seem to realize is that you cannot divide 7 billion individuals into two friggin' categories. My naughty bits are male, so I'm a dude, whether people think I act like it or not. As for my opinions on transgenderism... I'm gonna hold my tongue, cuz my opinion isn't positive.

Fay V
04-20-2013, 04:08 AM
I disagree with perceived gender roles not being a rather nasty problem.

I think you are right in that it is largely an issue born of society and gender roles are inherently silly because people do not fit into two neat categories, however that doesn't mean the experience of one individual that does not fit the mold is not legitimately painful.
I can't speak for trans folk, I am not trans, but identity issues are notable issues for teens and young adults, no matter what it is. If you have someone that naturally does not fit a societal norm, such as a trans individual, a gay individual, or perhaps even someone that's a tom boy or a boy that's a little feminine there is and issue of identity distortion.

It's the issue of someone attempting to grow up but feeling wrong and having no idea what they're doing wrong. That sort of thing is extremely damaging no matter who it is happening to.

Societal gender norms are rather silly because even today they are rather strict and there are people trans and non-trans that do not naturally fit. It is not a personal failing that feeling different and wrong hurts them. I think we need better psychological support for our teens and young adults. It's a high risk group with the highest rate of suicide and depression and I think we ought to treat that more seriously and recognize more clearly when people are struggling with that sort of thing rather than allow it to build to a point where it could be life ruining.
To those that are not trans giving them comfort in their identity and confidence. To those that are trans much of the same thing along with the support that is needed for the particular needs.

AurumLutra
04-20-2013, 04:37 AM
Okay, I definitely agree with that. Too often we let teenagers fall into that downward spiral of society telling them to be a certain way and that teenager feeling like a failure for not living up to expectations. I would argue, however, that it's a two way street. We need to change society's stereotypical views, but to do that the teenagers need to start saying eff you to society and just being who they are despite the haters. Society needs to realize that not everyone fits into their stupid rigid world view but everyone also needs to realize that they don't have to fit into anyone else's world view to be happy. Life's all about balances.

Fay V
04-20-2013, 05:33 AM
It is a two way street yes. Teen and young adult is a vulnerable time, it's when we develop our sense of identity and establish being an autonomous individual. That's why I was talking about better support for our teens and young adults. It's hard for teens and young adults to say "fuck you" to society without that kind of support.

So in the end, being different can be a big problem, but helping people that feel this way and supporting them will reduce the hurt. In turn they are comfortable acknowledging gender roles and other common social norms are not so simple as portrayed. They help those new teens, the new teens do not develop in such a painful environment, and eventually perhaps such problems are minimized.

Rsyk
05-14-2013, 01:19 AM
A few people have already weighed in on this...But I do have a question. For those of you that have had issues with your own identity and body...when did it start?

Fay V
05-14-2013, 02:50 AM
A few people have already weighed in on this...But I do have a question. For those of you that have had issues with your own identity and body...when did it start?

How much does one have to be at odds to be considered having issues with identity? I don't want to step on toes and comment and piss someone off because I don't really at this point have gender identity issues. I think I did when I was younger and more of a tom boy. Societal crap, but I can't pretend it's the same as what a trans person faces.

Sparkyopteryx
05-14-2013, 04:58 PM
A few people have already weighed in on this...But I do have a question. For those of you that have had issues with your own identity and body...when did it start?

I started having problems in late grade school (think 'round 5th or 6th grade elementary) when I became more and more like a tomboy; my mannerisms naturally became more "masculine" and I wanted to shop in the boy's and men's sections at stores. My mother resisted it for a while but still let me buy what I wanted, but even now when I'm grown, graduated and being my own individual, I know she never approved of it and tried for years to get me to wear the "girly" stuff simply because well, I'm a girl (despite the fact that I do not act like it a lot of the time). She didn't know it but that had a profound effect on how I viewed myself and I felt "bad" for liking the things I did. I can still remember the heated discussion when I said I wanted to wear a suit to the prom; that apparently was too much for her and she flat out refused to buy me anything but a dress. Man that sucked and even looking back I still don't like it. Problems with gender roles have become even more pronounced in my life because my other half actually likes being more feminine, and an effeminate man in this day and age is even MORE frowned upon than a woman that wants to dress in a suit. Got to love some of those societal double-standards.

I can freely admit I had a hard time with my identity and self-esteem through all of middle and high school because of those aforementioned problems, and I'm just a straight chick; I'm supposed to be "normal." So it's not even just the transgenders or the gays that get this social stigma. I will say that everyone's experiences are different though and I'm not holding any illusions that some people have or had it way tougher than me.

SpikedKanine
05-14-2013, 06:22 PM
I think a lot of the trannys that are out there today are'nt actually trannys-- but more agender or gender-fluid. They just want to do whatever they want and not be tied down by gender. I don't see a lot of them as real trannys. xD But Whatever makes them happy-- I don't really care or mind too much.

As for myself-- I like to call myself a girly tomboy. I girly things-- like dresses and buying pretty panties-- the whole nine yards. But I also like rolling in the mud and chasing after raccoons and cussing given the chance. So in that aspect I would call myself gender-fluid. Also because I'm somewhat bi-curious-- If I do ever imagine myself with a chick I always imagine being the masculine party. So yeah...LOL

Tycho
05-14-2013, 09:22 PM
I think a lot of the trannys that are out there today are'nt actually trannys-- but more agender or gender-fluid. They just want to do whatever they want and not be tied down by gender. I don't see a lot of them as real trannys. xD But Whatever makes them happy-- I don't really care or mind too much.

As for myself-- I like to call myself a girly tomboy. I girly things-- like dresses and buying pretty panties-- the whole nine yards. But I also like rolling in the mud and chasing after raccoons and cussing given the chance. So in that aspect I would call myself gender-fluid. Also because I'm somewhat bi-curious-- If I do ever imagine myself with a chick I always imagine being the masculine party. So yeah...LOL

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_cgn-6khy0j0/TSWrff8vzmI/AAAAAAAAATQ/Dp1yRvbsAFs/s1600/shut_up.jpg

:|

"tranny" is really fucking offensive, for a START

Ratte
05-14-2013, 09:23 PM
I think a lot of the trannys that are out there today are'nt actually trannys-- but more agender or gender-fluid. They just want to do whatever they want and not be tied down by gender. I don't see a lot of them as real trannys. xD But Whatever makes them happy-- I don't really care or mind too much.

As for myself-- I like to call myself a girly tomboy. I girly things-- like dresses and buying pretty panties-- the whole nine yards. But I also like rolling in the mud and chasing after raccoons and cussing given the chance. So in that aspect I would call myself gender-fluid. Also because I'm somewhat bi-curious-- If I do ever imagine myself with a chick I always imagine being the masculine party. So yeah...LOL

First off, "tranny" is a slur and is looked down upon.

Second, you do not have the authority to tell others how they identify. "How you see it" means not a damn thing, because it has nothing to do with you.

Mannerisms do not make an identity. Don't confuse the two.

Rsyk
05-15-2013, 01:07 PM
-snip-

I was looking for the trans* members of this forums opinion and experiences, but the rest of it is interesting anyway.


-snip-


It's a touchy subject because people often confuse which issues are a matter of opinion, and which are a matter of fact. And it's a difficult subject to research.


I will say that everyone's experiences are different though and I'm not holding any illusions that some people have or had it way tougher than me.

Simply admitting that makes conversations like this so much more pleasant. ^^


-These comments do not deserve to be repeated-

...
Refer to the previous comments on your statement.

PapayaShark
05-16-2013, 01:10 PM
I'm pretty darn sure I'm transsexual. Wanted to be and felt like a boy since I was 3-4 years, and thought about the possibility of being trans since 12. I despise my body and want a male one, with all the pros and cons. I just cant see myself grow old as a woman. But I will never get any help unless lie a ton. Because I like dudes and that not acceptable for transsexuals in Norway :I And my parents would not be supportive at all. My mom says that she is gsm friendly, but constantly mocks gay people and say that calls trans people by their assigned gender and say they arent really male/female. And my dad says I will never be a guy in his eyes no matter what I look like :|

And I will just say that there is a difference between gender and gender roles. Just because you like girly or boyish things does not mean that you are trans.
I'm also not too fond of transtrenders, who think its cool to be trans and think its a choice. Most of them are chicks who are "totally ftm, but don't want medical help cause they love their bodies" It fucks everything up for actual transsexuals who need medical help :I It seems like ftm is the new bisexual for attention starved girls.

Rsyk
05-19-2013, 02:51 PM
I'm pretty darn sure I'm transsexual. Wanted to be and felt like a boy since I was 3-4 years, and thought about the possibility of being trans since 12. I despise my body and want a male one, with all the pros and cons. I just cant see myself grow old as a woman. But I will never get any help unless lie a ton. Because I like dudes and that not acceptable for transsexuals in Norway :I And my parents would not be supportive at all. My mom says that she is gsm friendly, but constantly mocks gay people and say that calls trans people by their assigned gender and say they arent really male/female. And my dad says I will never be a guy in his eyes no matter what I look like :|

And I will just say that there is a difference between gender and gender roles. Just because you like girly or boyish things does not mean that you are trans.
I'm also not too fond of transtrenders, who think its cool to be trans and think its a choice. Most of them are chicks who are "totally ftm, but don't want medical help cause they love their bodies" It fucks everything up for actual transsexuals who need medical help :I It seems like ftm is the new bisexual for attention starved girls.

Really now? That's kind of messed up. Gender identity can have little to nothing to do with sexuality, it really shouldn't act as a barrier to treatment. Does Norway have strict SOC procedures?

I can sympathize on that end completely. When I first told my mother that I liked men she said outright that I couldn't be gay because I hadn't acted like it growing up. And she still has significant trouble with understanding that I'm not...well, Jack from Will and Grace. I'm kind of terrified to let her know about my issues now because I know exactly how she'll respond.

i knew someone like this in highschool, but it was FtM. Claimed to be transexual, said he felt female on the inside, but when asked about HRT or SRS responded with "Why, I look fine." Of course, he also changed the way he identified every other week.

PapayaShark
05-22-2013, 03:05 PM
Really now? That's kind of messed up. Gender identity can have little to nothing to do with sexuality, it really shouldn't act as a barrier to treatment. Does Norway have strict SOC procedures?

I can sympathize on that end completely. When I first told my mother that I liked men she said outright that I couldn't be gay because I hadn't acted like it growing up. And she still has significant trouble with understanding that I'm not...well, Jack from Will and Grace. I'm kind of terrified to let her know about my issues now because I know exactly how she'll respond.

i knew someone like this in highschool, but it was FtM. Claimed to be transexual, said he felt female on the inside, but when asked about HRT or SRS responded with "Why, I look fine." Of course, he also changed the way he identified every other week.

Yeah, if you are anything other than a stereotypical macho man, you wont get any help :I And there is only one gender clinic in Norway, so that sucks if you live anywhere other than south-east. They also ask really inappropriate questions like how you masturbate, and they told one transguy that he should have sex with women instead of men, because real men have sex with women. And ofc he was refused treatment. And if you want to change your gender marker, you will have to get castrated. The gender clinic has also asked the Norwegian healthcare to stop anybody else from helping transsexuals.

So yeah, wooo go Norway! :I

SpikedKanine
05-22-2013, 09:26 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_cgn-6khy0j0/TSWrff8vzmI/AAAAAAAAATQ/Dp1yRvbsAFs/s1600/shut_up.jpg

:|

"tranny" is really fucking offensive, for a START


First off, "tranny" is a slur and is looked down upon.

Second, you do not have the authority to tell others how they identify. "How you see it" means not a damn thing, because it has nothing to do with you.

Mannerisms do not make an identity. Don't confuse the two.

Cheezus crust. o____o;;;

I didn't know 'tranny' was an offensive term(my transgendered friends have never been offended by it? So Idk). Sorry if it offended anyone-- Secondly-- My opinion does not mean diddly squat. My opinion is not fact.

That just 'how I see it'. I do not know for a fact. I have been wrong before-- and I will be wrong again. I didn't mean to offend /anyone/, Sorry if it sounded as such.

Last time I ever comment on these kind of things. x_x

Rsyk
05-23-2013, 12:45 AM
Yeah, if you are anything other than a stereotypical macho man, you wont get any help :I And there is only one gender clinic in Norway, so that sucks if you live anywhere other than south-east. They also ask really inappropriate questions like how you masturbate, and they told one transguy that he should have sex with women instead of men, because real men have sex with women. And ofc he was refused treatment. And if you want to change your gender marker, you will have to get castrated. The gender clinic has also asked the Norwegian healthcare to stop anybody else from helping transsexuals.

So yeah, wooo go Norway! :I

I've actually heard that Europe in general is actually pretty bad about trying to make all trans* fit the exact mold. Kinda like the Standards of Care thing, only on a broad base.
But hey, could be worse. It could be Iran. :V

Colooring1977
05-25-2013, 05:39 AM
Transgenders are also a human like us. They live their life the way they like...

Zinn
05-25-2013, 07:20 PM
As I respond to the original post, I identify as Trans. But often consider the -gender and -sexual part a false dichotomy and had a pretty bad experience with a older local transgroup arguing exclusive rights to healthcare that would only benefit four people, while alienating and bullying everyone else that sought their help. Transgender from them got a bad rap and conflated with 'weekend crossdressers' who were ambient about transition and in the groups eyes not worthy of help. This was really far from the truth, but that didn't stop them trying to disrupt the Scottish Trans-Health Conference in Glasgow last year.

Given I can only post short comments, this is all I can say for now.

EDIT: Wondering if I can tack more on...

About four years ago when I first started to seek help about transition I was told that if you were questioning your gender or wanted to talk about it with someone, you could. Besides when I was told it's not really butter, that was the biggest lie I have ever heard.

Counselling or having a chat with a licensed professional on the matter was only reserved from the get go if you were wanting a specific set of surgeries that was pre-ordained, and this deviated from WPATH and other professional recommendations, and was pretty unfair. Yes, I'm trans, but -gender or -sexual? I say both. I'm been going from a Male body to a female aesthetic (the sexual part) to match my inner mental life but teasing out the mental life isn't quite easy, and outside of myself terminology evolves and is utilised in ways faster than I can eat a packet of skittles. A point I want to bring up is not all Men nor Women think the same, some could have a more masculine or feminine thinking pattern, a mix of both or neither or something else altogether, I'm not psychic (yet) but if you were mentally female, what kind of women would think you'll be? I also think Transgender gets it's own bad rap, because certain people conflate it entirely with "fetishists" or "weekend cross-dressers" and use that to deny people any form of support, and the people I've seen make such arguments are not in a position to make that call. (The aforementioned local group.)

While I'm physically uncomfortable with my own anatomy and find satisfaction emulating a female apperance I am going down that route for surgery, but in my mind I feel this robotic personae, that's analytical and logical. But I'm devoid of the masculine rough-housing, or competitive streak. I'm hestient to use the term 'gender neutral' or 'neurtois' but agender sounds pretty close to an accurate statement. I think there is recognition that people will opt to use words they feel better represent themselves, even if two people feel the same way via any comparision, they'll likely have a different taste. Some also like to use 'Queer' as a catch all term. Personal experience some are comfortable using slurs, but in a more mischevious way with friends or company, being aware it's a term of derision outside their comfort zone.

Rsyk
06-06-2013, 03:14 PM
Just a small update here, I suppose, since I entered this thread to sort out through some of my own issues.

I started HRT about a week ago and I'm in the process of attempting to find a therapist who specializes in gender issues close to where I live. Thus far I've felt better about it than most things I'm doing with my life. ^^

Tybby
06-06-2013, 11:59 PM
oh hey hi thread

I've for a while identified as "mostly male"

I'm p. comfortable with being in a male body, but I don't feel comfortable identifying as "fully male"

idk. I just have an idea of what masculinity is and I wouldn't say I'm all the way there

Onnes
06-07-2013, 12:37 AM
oh hey hi thread

I've for a while identified as "mostly male"

I'm p. comfortable with being in a male body, but I don't feel comfortable identifying as "fully male"

idk. I just have an idea of what masculinity is and I wouldn't say I'm all the way there

Would this not just mean you are simply a less than 100% masculine male? (Where I suppose I am implicitly defining some sort of masculinity scale.) I mean, unless you've at some point downed two bottles of bootleg vodka, wrestled a moose into submission, and then ridden it home, any claim of maximal masculinity would be disingenuous or naive.

Rsyk
06-07-2013, 12:59 AM
Would this not just mean you are simply a less than 100% masculine male? (Where I suppose I am implicitly defining some sort of masculinity scale.) I mean, unless you've at some point downed two bottles of bootleg vodka, wrestled a moose into submission, and then ridden it home, any claim of maximal masculinity would be disingenuous or naive.

That image is fantastic. X3

Tybby
06-07-2013, 09:17 PM
Would this not just mean you are simply a less than 100% masculine male? (Where I suppose I am implicitly defining some sort of masculinity scale.) I mean, unless you've at some point downed two bottles of bootleg vodka, wrestled a moose into submission, and then ridden it home, any claim of maximal masculinity would be disingenuous or naive.

To me "100% masculine" would be like, the average male, whereas I'd say that... visual would be an example of hyper masculinity

I think basing my opinion on "what is male" off of so extreme an outlier would be to forget why exactly I'm creating that image

because as you said, everyone is a woman compared to that, haha

Onnes
06-07-2013, 11:29 PM
To me "100% masculine" would be like, the average male, whereas I'd say that... visual would be an example of hyper masculinity ...
'Tis but a coordinate transformation!

More seriously, what I'm getting at is that is that basing gender identity--which I start off on based on your repeated usage of "identify"--on masculinity/femininity is a bad idea. The terms masculine and feminine refer to traditional gender expressions and roles. But, as I think most here recognize, these cultural roles are overly restrictive and increasingly irrelevant. Hanging identity on them may well relegate most of the population to some poorly defined gender no-mans-land. The way I see it you have two options: you disassociate gender with traditional gender roles and take it as defaulting to invariant excepting dysmorphia or you take the more radical path of more or less abolishing gender. Either way, the topic is a definitional clusterfuck.

Tybby
06-09-2013, 04:12 PM
Hanging identity on them may well relegate most of the population to some poorly defined gender no-mans-land.

I don't see much of a problem with this

I mean, gender is already a p. arbitrary system. Right now it basically amounts to which pronouns you prefer based on the traits you as an individual attribute to whatever gender

Brace
06-18-2013, 08:42 PM
I don't see much of a problem with this

I mean, gender is already a p. arbitrary system. Right now it basically amounts to which pronouns you prefer based on the traits you as an individual attribute to whatever gender

Does it really? If so, it seems like a huge set of concepts have been appropriated pretty much solely as a fashion statement by enough people for the concepts to be redefined.

- - - Updated - - -


As I respond to the original post, I identify as Trans. But often consider the -gender and -sexual part a false dichotomy and had a pretty bad experience with a older local transgroup arguing exclusive rights to healthcare that would only benefit four people, while alienating and bullying everyone else that sought their help. Transgender from them got a bad rap and conflated with 'weekend crossdressers' who were ambient about transition and in the groups eyes not worthy of help. This was really far from the truth, but that didn't stop them trying to disrupt the Scottish Trans-Health Conference in Glasgow last year.

It sounds like these people have the right idea.


Counselling or having a chat with a licensed professional on the matter was only reserved from the get go if you were wanting a specific set of surgeries that was pre-ordained, and this deviated from WPATH and other professional recommendations, and was pretty unfair. Yes, I'm trans, but -gender or -sexual? I say both. I'm been going from a Male body to a female aesthetic (the sexual part) to match my inner mental life but teasing out the mental life isn't quite easy, and outside of myself terminology evolves and is utilised in ways faster than I can eat a packet of skittles. A point I want to bring up is not all Men nor Women think the same, some could have a more masculine or feminine thinking pattern, a mix of both or neither or something else altogether, I'm not psychic (yet) but if you were mentally female, what kind of women would think you'll be? I also think Transgender gets it's own bad rap, because certain people conflate it entirely with "fetishists" or "weekend cross-dressers" and use that to deny people any form of support, and the people I've seen make such arguments are not in a position to make that call. (The aforementioned local group.)

Someone has to make that call. It shouldn't be a precondition to be set on surgery just to see a professional, because many people have reservations who still ultimately need surgery. Gender concepts should also be disassociated from concepts related to dysphoria; clothing and hobby preferences are not intrinsic attributes to a given sex. A given type of body is an intrinsic attribute to a given sex, and with actual transsexuals, being deprived of this body thus leads to discomfort. This is really the only essential aspect of transsexuality. If you exhibit every other so-called symptom of Gender Dysphoria but not this one you aren't transsexual, and if you exhibit no other symptom of Gender Dysphoria except for this one then you are. But of course, the only people that play up dyphoria and the science behind it are also religious followers of the Harry Benjamin classification system which says that not only do you need to be dysphoric, you also need to be a 1950's housewife in demeanor and preferences. Those people undermine the medical advancement of actual transsexuals. There are a lot of weekend cross-dressers though as well, and they absolutely deserve the disparagement. The entire trans community is seperated into two different false and bloated narratives that have been planted among us by the old school of trans-related psychiatry and medicine on the one hand, and by LGB on the other.


While I'm physically uncomfortable with my own anatomy and find satisfaction emulating a female apperance I am going down that route for surgery, but in my mind I feel this robotic personae, that's analytical and logical. But I'm devoid of the masculine rough-housing, or competitive streak. I'm hestient to use the term 'gender neutral' or 'neurtois' but agender sounds pretty close to an accurate statement. I think there is recognition that people will opt to use words they feel better represent themselves, even if two people feel the same way via any comparision, they'll likely have a different taste. Some also like to use 'Queer' as a catch all term. Personal experience some are comfortable using slurs, but in a more mischevious way with friends or company, being aware it's a term of derision outside their comfort zone.

This is fine and also irrelevant. If you're uncomfortable with your anatomy you're trans, end of story. All this crap about gender expression is a colossal red herring. You can explore your gender all you want but at the end of the day it has no bearing on what medical treatment you need.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm also not too fond of transtrenders, who think its cool to be trans and think its a choice. Most of them are chicks who are "totally ftm, but don't want medical help cause they love their bodies" It fucks everything up for actual transsexuals who need medical help :I It seems like ftm is the new bisexual for attention starved girls.

It took me forever to realize this was actually a thing, but yeah. Again, this is partially a consequence LGB narratives being used to colonize and appropriate trans identities.

Bri Mercedes
09-19-2013, 10:56 AM
I am going to be so unpopular after this post:

For a while when I was super young, I thought being a "girl" was all about pink and Barbie and drama and fashion and being popular and having HUGE LOOPY HANDWRITING, none of which I wanted to really attach myself to. I grew up around men and boys, played with Legos, played whatever manly video game my brothers were playing, took martial arts over cheerleading, etc. For a while I didn't feel like I was a girl.

Then when I matured a little, I realized gender was over-emphasized in the American culture I grew up in. Maybe this has lead to the gender identity "crisis". I've realized that gender does not and should not define a person. You like Legos? Great! Beat those dudes in Smash Bros. Dresses aren't your thing. That doesn't make you any more or less YOU! The words "boy" and "girl" should refer to how someone was born, not their likes and dislikes and personality. I kinda gag every time I walk down the sugar sweet pink toy aisle. (I did 90% of my toy shopping in the boy aisle when I was little!) But I still have no problem with being a girl. I have girl parts and girl emotions and I'm married to a super sweet guy (our gender roles switch places occasionally!). I wear dresses now because I'm comfortable with my body and they look good on me, not because that's what girls are supposed to do.

My point is, I believe individuals should not find their identity in gender. It distracts from the bigger picture. I feel the same way about labels like "furry" or "otaku". Just enjoy what you enjoy and don't let labels get in the way. Be yourself!

Fibriel Solaer
10-19-2013, 07:22 PM
So how faggy do the Weasyl forums get? :B
Far less so than FurAffinity's, from my experience so far. I've only been here a day or two, however.


Dost thou relate to a separate gender identity than the physical one you were given?
Nay.


What are your thoughts on transgenderism?
Please define the term, because it doesn't mean what you or I say it means to everyone.

On the concept of one's gender identity and gender being different (which I call transgender), that alone doesn't give me any reason for hostility, although the reason behind it (which is different for everyone) might affect my view of them as a person. It will not be the only factor and it will not be a large factor. A good person is a good person regardless of gender or gender identity.

On the concept of surgically altering one's own body to simulate a different gender (which I call transsexual), I have very offensive and disapproving views of this and it's best I don't go into detail as I've gotten into trouble for it before and it will do nothing but harm for everyone involved.


My point is, I believe individuals should not find their identity in gender.
I partially agree with you. We should be trying to be good people, not good men or good women or good whatever the hell else.

There are some identities that play on gender, however. It is a sad fact of society that a handsome dashing man with slight playboy tendencies is seen much less lasciviously than a beautiful woman with some naughty quirks.

Tybby
12-16-2013, 03:07 PM
So I've been identifying as Gender Queer for a half-year now and I've been feeling a lot more confident about my gender identity, which has shifted a bit to "equally both" (not really comfy with the terms "Agender" or "Androgynous")

just thought I'd update I suppose~

Rico
12-16-2013, 03:41 PM
I'm female to male trans. I'm a guy and it has no bearing on my interests or the way I present myself other than presenting myself in such a way that I don't get misgendered. I've always been the same person, just not comfortable transitioning (binding, taking T, considering surgeries) until recently.
I'm honestly kind of boring when it comes to trans stuff cuz binary trans isn't too complicated. My fiancee is mtf trans. SHRUG.

If anyone has questions in regard to trans stuff feel free to PM me. I can't really recommend anything but I'm happy to discuss it with anyone who's respectful and all.
Also there needs to be more resources around for transwomen like holy shit. There's tons of stuff out there for transguys but transwomen resources are like ???

Sax
12-16-2013, 04:44 PM
Another trans man here.
I began identifying with gay men (and then as one) at around 9-12yo, and began to medically transition more than ten years ago. I wasn't feeling much out of place with gender roles, because in my family women aren't really feminine, and I was spending most of my free time alone anyway, but when puberty came I began to feel a huge disconnect with my body.

People don't know I'm trans where I live and I'm mostly fine with that. I'll probably tell my friends someday, but ever since I managed to change my id papers, I've been enjoying living as a random gay dude.

Reshy
12-18-2013, 03:03 AM
If this hasn't been posted yet I think it yields some useful information.

http://ftmichael.transboys.info/trans101.html

Tica
01-09-2014, 10:15 PM
I am cis female, butch lesbian-style. (Don't let my super girly fursona fool you. If you meet me in real life, I have a buzz cut, hairy legs/pits, wear masculine clothing... I even wore a suitcoat and top hat to my sister's wedding reception!)

I reject the gender binary entirely.

I do my best to respect trans* people's identities and pronouns, although I'm really bad at using the singular "they" for the agender/gender fluid because of all the grammatical training I had in school telling me that the singular "they" is a horrible grammar crime.

I believe, though, that it is metaphysically impossible to be born in the "wrong" body. I guess unless you believe in some sort of spiritual forces beyond what exists? Because in a purely natural universe, you're born in the body you're born in. You are not obligated to like it, and you're certainly not obligated to keep it as-is and make no effort to change it. But there's no such thing as a "right" or a "wrong" body. Bodies are bodies are bodies.

I think a lot of trans* theory reinforces the gender binary that I reject. "I'm a dude trapped in a woman's body" is just as strange as saying, "I'm a fox trapped in a human's body" or "I'm an African trapped in a white man's body." You aren't trapped in your body, you ARE your body. Like I said before, you might not *like* it. But it is what it is.

Now, because I reject the gender binary, if people want to change their pronouns, their physical body, their gender roles in society, etc., more power to them. But if they reinforce the male/female binary by it, I feel it's actually harmful. I'm a butch woman. That means I have more masculine characteristics than female characteristics. I've even experienced, to a certain degree, bodily dysphoria--wanting to cut off my breasts, wanting a bigger clitoris, wanting a deeper voice and facial hair. But I find that at least my dysphoria is caused by *internalized misogyny* from society's bullshit gender roles that they force on you from birth. Breaking free from those gender roles as a butch lesbian is my choice, rather than deciding to live by those gender roles and transitioning.

Again, everyone should have the right to transition if they want. It's your body and with informed consent, you should be able to do what you want.

I just happen to think that in an ideal world where gender roles are abolished and everyone is free and equal to express whatever gender identities they want in whatever way they want without fear of reprisal etc., the idea of being born in the "wrong" body will go away.

Damian
01-09-2014, 10:37 PM
It's not exactly like "i'm a fox trapped in a human's body" because how the brain is wired yes you CAN feel like you ARE a male in a woman's body or vice versa. There is no possible way for someone to be a fox in a human's body due to chemical reactions in the brain.

I don't believe abolishing gender roles or whatever will do anything to fix it. It will just make people more comfortable acting outside of the "norm" without ridicule.

Tica
01-09-2014, 10:46 PM
It's not exactly like "i'm a fox trapped in a human's body" because how the brain is wired yes you CAN feel like you ARE a male in a woman's body or vice versa. There is no possible way for someone to be a fox in a human's body due to chemical reactions in the brain.

I don't believe abolishing gender roles or whatever will do anything to fix it. It will just make people more comfortable acting outside of the "norm" without ridicule.

Are you arguing that chemically there is a "female" brain and a "male" brain? Because I reject this concept. Any study of "brain sex" just proves that humans are humans and brains have very, very insignificant--dare I say statistically insignificant--differences between sexes.

Regardless, the body is what it is. It isn't "right" or "wrong" unless you believe in some kind of spiritual world or higher power that dictates what is right in the physical world from what is wrong. (And if you do believe this, I respect that belief.) Otherwise you simply have dysphoria that you can choose to treat via transitioning or to treat via accepting your physical body as-is.

Neither choice is more valid than the other.

Willow
01-09-2014, 10:53 PM
I can't quote huge bodies of text on my phone, but Tica, it's a lot more than just you feel trapped in your body. And imo saying you're a boy/girl trapped in the opposite gender's body is a bit inaccurate.

The best way I can explain it is, you have this growing feeling that something is just not right. It's like the elephant in the room. Only you're both the elephant and the room or something like that. And it's waaay different from someone who thinks they're an animal or a different race.

Edit: and as a side note, you can't really will away dysphoria by just accepting your body. :I

Littlerock
01-09-2014, 10:59 PM
I can never decide for certain what identity is right for me, but agender borderline genderfluid seems to fit me best. I've no explanation for this, or why I feel this way. Being biologically female, I grew up with female pronouns, and I'm quite okay with continuing using them. I simply don't think of myself as being a girl more often than the odd day, and a 'boy day' happens once in a while too.

Whatever I am, I'm certainly not pretty in pink.

Damian
01-09-2014, 11:09 PM
Are you arguing that chemically there is a "female" brain and a "male" brain? Because I reject this concept. Any study of "brain sex" just proves that humans are humans and brains have very, very insignificant--dare I say statistically insignificant--differences between sexes.

Regardless, the body is what it is. It isn't "right" or "wrong" unless you believe in some kind of spiritual world or higher power that dictates what is right in the physical world from what is wrong. (And if you do believe this, I respect that belief.) Otherwise you simply have dysphoria that you can choose to treat via transitioning or to treat via accepting your physical body as-is.

Neither choice is more valid than the other.

Yes, there is a "male" brain and "female" brain. Reject it all you want but there ARE differences in the brain
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/11/27/1316909110.abstract

Just like how there's differences in the straight and gay brain structure, so there is regarding male and female.

TealMoon
01-09-2014, 11:24 PM
What exactly is feeling like a girl or a boy?

How do you feel gender?

Willow
01-09-2014, 11:30 PM
What exactly is feeling like a girl or a boy?

How do you feel gender?
I guess you could say you feel "in tune" with your physical body. Like someone says you're a girl/boy and it registers with you that "yes, yes I am".

That sort of thing.

Percy
01-09-2014, 11:39 PM
I'm a male, but I tend to try to steer away from the traits of masculinity. I like my hair to be longer (yet not too long), and I dislike having facial hair.

I'm also not effeminate either (despite my character seeming that way). Honestly, I feel as if I'm more gender-neutral than anything else when it comes to most of my actions. I just... kind of do my own thing.

...I'm probably not making any sense.

dirtypaws
01-09-2014, 11:41 PM
What exactly is feeling like a girl or a boy?

How do you feel gender?

the way i guess i'd best explain it is that you KNOW you don't fit the body you have. you don't have to feel specifically male or female (i, for one, don't) but you know what you're being labeled as is not right.

MAAB agender here. pretty stuck right now, as i only want bottom surgery but getting SRS for binary trans people is hard enough as is without adding in "yea but i don't want to fully transition from male to female, just the bottom." :I

piņardilla
01-10-2014, 02:29 AM
With the frequency people identify as trans, genderqueer, agender, etc. around here, sometimes I wonder if the completely monocisgendered population isn't actually a minority.

I mean, I identify as simply male. But, if I'm being completely honest (why am I being completely honest with you guys), once in a while I do feel like I'd like to swap parts for a bit. I just don't want to keep them.

Zeitzbach
01-10-2014, 02:36 AM
I am male who mess around with bromance all the time. Nothing really wrong with enjoying it for the heck of it as long as I don't take it in the butt.

Thought I would actually like it more if there's no such thing as male and female in this world. Everyone is genderless and reproduce through 4 hours of hugging.

Bornes
01-10-2014, 02:53 AM
I don't normally come out and say this but eh.
I'm FtM. I transitioned about three years ago. Had chest surgery... I'm legally male.

I got a lot of flak from the trans community I was getting "support" from. Apparently I was never "trans" enough to them. Tbh I just really don't give a shit about gender anymore, I just like being socially male.

Anyway, I live life as a male. I'm not open about being FtM because it's not who I am as a person. It's just a medical thing I had to deal with.

piņardilla
01-10-2014, 02:56 AM
I don't normally come out and say this but eh.
I'm FtM. I transitioned about three years ago. Had chest surgery... I'm legally male.

I got a lot of flak from the trans community I was getting "support" from. Apparently I was never "trans" enough. Tbh I just really don't give a shit about gender anymore, I just like being socially male.

Anyway, I live life as a male. I'm not open about being FtM because it's not who I am as a person. It's just a medical thing I had to deal with.

How can you go through SRS and still not be "trans enough"

like srsly idgi

dirtypaws
01-10-2014, 02:56 AM
I don't normally come out and say this but eh.
I'm FtM. I transitioned about three years ago. Had chest surgery... I'm legally male.

I got a lot of flak from the trans community I was getting "support" from. Apparently I was never "trans" enough. Tbh I just really don't give a shit about gender anymore, I just like being socially male.

Anyway, I live life as a male. I'm not open about being FtM because it's not who I am as a person. It's just a medical thing I had to deal with.

man the whole "not trans enough" is such bullshit. it ends up normally just being used as a ploy from certain trans people to make other trans people feel bad for not wanting the same things they do, or experiencing something differently than they do. it's essentially "you're not suffering like me, so you're not trans". it's ridiculous.

Butterflygoddess
01-10-2014, 03:02 AM
I'm of the opinion that gender roles and identities are rather useless and serve no productive purpose in reality.

Except for pronouns...god, they are so useful for deciding which way you should address someone.

TealMoon
01-10-2014, 03:06 AM
I got a lot of flak from the trans community I was getting "support" from. Apparently I was never "trans" enough to them. Tbh I just really don't give a shit about gender anymore, I just like being socially male..Wut. O_o

RainWizard
01-10-2014, 03:10 AM
I'm happy being a guy, but I'm also admittedly very effeminate. But, while I act as camp as a row of tents half the time, I wouldn't change my Roger for a Vickie, if y'all get me.

Vae
01-10-2014, 03:15 AM
I'm biologically female, and identify as such, but I really just don't give a shit about what gender I am.
Like, if someone came up to me and offered the chance to switch genders painlessly and easily, I'd probably do it for the fuck of it, if my fiance wouldn't dump my ass on the spot. (Spoiler alert: He probably would.)
I sway to both ends of gender stereotypes. I am the girliest girl and the manliest man.
I don't know if that means anything, or if that just makes me a really weird tomboy or some shit. But it is what it is.

Bornes
01-10-2014, 03:16 AM
How can you go through SRS and still not be "trans enough"

like srsly idgiI was getting support from them before I was able to get surgery and therapy. Also, SRS is generally considered a sbottom surgery. I've only had top/chest surgery.


man the whole "not trans enough" is such bullshit. it ends up normally just being used as a ploy from certain trans people to make other trans people feel bad for not wanting the same things they do, or experiencing something differently than they do. it's essentially "you're not suffering like me, so you're not trans". it's ridiculous.
It's exactly that. But you know that saying about how one depressed person can bring everyone else down? That's what the (pre-everything) trans community is/does. They're suffering and they're miserable, and especially in the online community, the whole purpose is to get together and share complaint about it. That's why a lot of post-transition people leave the support groups and that's why a lot of people who don't have as much dysphoria are shunned.

For me, I never really had body dysphoria-- Yeah, I wanted to cut my boobs off, but that had nothing to do with being trans, really. I had no problem with pronouns-- I was female so yeah durr I'm gonna get called 'she' irl there's nothing I can do about it. My biggest problem was that I had only social dysphoria. I wanted to be treated like a guy, be included in the group of guys, and I never really related to girls. Everyone called me a sexist asshat and the only reason I wanted to transition was because I hated girls so much.

I did have some sexism problems, and I took many years to work through them. I don't hate females and I don't view them lower than males now, and haven't for some time. But even if I was still a sexist asshat that doesn't give me no right to transition. It's my body and I'll do whatever the hell I want with it.

This belief that if someone "undeserving" transitions takes away someone else's opportunity to transition is nonsensical. There's no specific number of people allowed to transition, there's no shortage of hormones, surgeons, etc.

If anything, the whole ordeal just makes me really not like trans people and the trans community as a whole. Or at least, the people who are bitter about being unable to transition (yet).

Especially the tumblr trans community. Yeah, they can just go and fuck themselves.

dirtypaws
01-10-2014, 03:17 AM
I'm of the opinion that gender roles and identities are rather useless and serve no productive purpose in reality.

Except for pronouns...god, they are so useful for deciding which way you should address someone.

totally agree. i hate that we even still carry on bizarre concepts like gender roles, and carry segregation of genders like a necessity. unfortunately, even breaking those down wouldn't help anyone feel better about themselves. :C

Bornes
01-10-2014, 03:21 AM
totally agree. i hate that we even still carry on bizarre concepts like gender roles, and carry segregation of genders like a necessity. unfortunately, even breaking those down wouldn't help anyone feel better about themselves. :C

I disagree. I think breaking gender roles and having people be more accepting of nonbinary gender identification would take a lot of pressure off transpeople to physically transition. With less social stigma, there's less triggers for dysphoria. Of course it won't get rid of dysphoria, but I think it would, overall, be much less harmful to people experiencing it.

However, I don't think society is going to be accepting of non-cis identities anytime soon.

dirtypaws
01-10-2014, 03:34 AM
I disagree. I think breaking gender roles and having people be more accepting of nonbinary gender identification would take a lot of pressure off transpeople to physically transition. With less social stigma, there's less triggers for dysphoria. Of course it won't get rid of dysphoria, but I think it would, overall, be much less harmful to people experiencing it.

However, I don't think society is going to be accepting of non-cis identities anytime soon.

i can see that to a degree, yea! absolutely. but, people are still not going to be happy with the bodies they have, even if they are allowed to present from the start as who they know they are and not who someone else assigns them to be, yaknow?

Runefox
01-10-2014, 03:41 AM
I identify closer to female than male. For a while I was considering going through with transitioning (I had seen doctors about it) but decided against it for a lot of reasons I won't get into. For now I'm content to pretend I'm a girl (or somewhere on the female side of fantasy-land intersex) online. Not in a creepy internet predator kind of way, more like roleplay. Not as though I do much of that anymore, though.

In the end, my body is decidedly masculine, so even if I went through with it, I'd still hate it. You can't reshape bone.

I usually don't go around talking about it and just list my gender as N/A or whatever, but since the topic's come up...

Dreaming
01-10-2014, 07:06 AM
I've mentioned that I identify as genderfluid, which sounds pretty gross :c Usually I don't really give a damn, I try not to think about it too much... I dunno, it fits and I'm comfortable

Lucy Bones
01-10-2014, 07:52 AM
I don't pretend to know anything about psychology or biology. All I know is I was born male, but I've always felt female. Sure, gender roles are slowly becoming a dead concept and stereotypical femininity is becoming more and more diverse amongst the sexes, but the stereotypical femininity is something I've always enjoyed, personally. I like being a lady. I'm already a fairly depressed person who can't seem to find her purpose, but I know what makes me smile, and seeing myself at least trying to be a beautiful woman makes me truly happy.

Tica
01-10-2014, 07:52 AM
I can't quote huge bodies of text on my phone, but Tica, it's a lot more than just you feel trapped in your body. And imo saying you're a boy/girl trapped in the opposite gender's body is a bit inaccurate.

The best way I can explain it is, you have this growing feeling that something is just not right. It's like the elephant in the room. Only you're both the elephant and the room or something like that. And it's waaay different from someone who thinks they're an animal or a different race.

Edit: and as a side note, you can't really will away dysphoria by just accepting your body. :I

I think that phraseology is inaccurate and I'd like to see it go away. And I don't think dysphoria can be willed away. But think about anorexic people who have dysmorphia in thinking they need to be skinner. They can choose to learn, through hard work, therapy, etc., to love their bodies as-is. There are trans people out there who never pysically transition, and simply socially transition, even if they do have some degree of dysmorphia. That's an acceptable thing, too.

(my thoughts are super disjointed so I apologize for any confusion I'm causing0


Yes, there is a "male" brain and "female" brain. Reject it all you want but there ARE differences in the brain
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/11/27/1316909110.abstract

Just like how there's differences in the straight and gay brain structure, so there is regarding male and female.

Male/Female is not a binary, it is a spectrum, and your source claims there are differences but I can't find any actual data? A lot of times studies like this have two veryvery similiar bell curves of data that mostly overlap but have a few men on one end and a few women on the other end that don't overlap and then they go, SEE! BRAIN SEX!

I am willing to believe that testosterone and estrogen can have different effects on the brain, but some women (like me) have a lot of testosterone without being trans (but enough to grow me a little chinbeard :/ ) and some men have more estrogen, and that's okay too.

Runefox
01-10-2014, 09:33 AM
I like being a lady. I'm already a fairly depressed person who can't seem to find her purpose, but I know what makes me smile, and seeing myself at least trying to be a beautiful woman makes me truly happy.

This is really the most important thing, right here. If it makes you feel right, comfortable in your own skin, puts a smile on your face and gives you the energy to get up in the morning, then it's tough to say anything bad about it.

Willow
01-10-2014, 11:19 AM
It's exactly that. But you know that saying about how one depressed person can bring everyone else down? That's what the (pre-everything) trans community is/does. They're suffering and they're miserable, and especially in the online community, the whole purpose is to get together and share complaint about it. That's why a lot of post-transition people leave the support groups and that's why a lot of people who don't have as much dysphoria are shunned.

That or if you're not lashing out at everyone and constantly talking about how you hate cis people, etc., then there's something wrong with you. I've had at least one person tell me they were sorry for me because I essentially wasn't a bitter asshole and an immature brat. :/

And then I was accused of apparent "tone policing".


Especially the tumblr trans community. Yeah, they can just go and fuck themselves.
They're an okay network of support when they want to be, but you pretty much have to limit yourself to actual trans* support blogs.

The individual blogs are really only interested in self pity it seems and have created this toxic, off putting community that even shuts people who want to simply learn about the community out.


I think that phraseology is inaccurate and I'd like to see it go away. And I don't think dysphoria can be willed away. But think about anorexic people who have dysmorphia in thinking they need to be skinner. They can choose to learn, through hard work, therapy, etc., to love their bodies as-is. There are trans people out there who never pysically transition, and simply socially transition, even if they do have some degree of dysmorphia. That's an acceptable thing, too.

(my thoughts are super disjointed so I apologize for any confusion I'm causing0
Well yeah, I'm aware of this. Surgeries are expensive and some people don't want to go on hormones for a number of reasons. And it's apparently more expensive for MtFs. Me personally, I'm okay with presenting as male for the moment..even though it doesn't read immediately that I am. But that's a whole other story I guess.

I guess the way it was worded though, it made it sound like you were asking why can't a trans* person just accept themselves and be done with it.

Krespo
01-10-2014, 11:51 AM
If the opinion of cis scum counts for anything, y'all are lovely <3

People have a right to be who they want to be. Some of us got lucky, I was born with the sex and gender I'm comfortable with. That doesn't make the choices of people without that luxury any less valid. Even if I dont fully understand it it's not my or anyone's place to tell you you're not who you are, or stop you from being who you want to be.

Bornes
01-10-2014, 04:48 PM
I am willing to believe that testosterone and estrogen can have different effects on the brain, but some women (like me) have a lot of testosterone without being trans (but enough to grow me a little chinbeard :/ ) and some men have more estrogen, and that's okay too.
Let me help.
try this one (http://imatyfa.org/research/about/MTF-cc-comp.pdf)
But your view also has support (http://sugarandslugs.wordpress.com/2011/02/)

There's a difference between gender identity and simple hormone levels (as I'm sure you know). Just because you have more testosterone than the average female, doesn't mean your brain thinks you're male. There's plenty of men with low T levels who don't think they're women. So the difference in a "male brain" and "female brain" wouldn't be hormone levels (probably). It'd be something else, something that probably has to do with sense of self.

But it's all still pretty new, scientifically, so I doubt we'll have some super hard evidence until a few more years pass.
There is also this, though (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html).

Tica
01-10-2014, 07:10 PM
I guess the way it was worded though, it made it sound like you were asking why can't a trans* person just accept themselves and be done with it.

I realize now how that sounded. It's a difficult concept to get across. I think Bornes put it really well earlier in the thread: "I think breaking gender roles and having people be more accepting of nonbinary gender identification would take a lot of pressure off transpeople to physically transition. With less social stigma, there's less triggers for dysphoria."

In my case (and I'm just giving my personal experience, not trying to say everyone has the same experience as me) my dysphoria was severely reduced by throwing myself wholeheartedly into feminism, accepting myself as butch-not-trans, looking for positive female role models, and generally doing whatever I could to get rid of the internalized misogyny I had developed from growing up in a conservative Christian bubble, dating men who believed in gender roles and tried to make me into their perfect little wifey, and going to a Catholic college where gender roles were upheld, misogyny/homophobia was rampant, and feminism was demonized.

I still have issues with my body sometimes--such as wanting to get rid of my breasts, wanting either no chin hair or a full beard instead of this stupid dinky little chinbeard I have (I pluck it, but have problems with ingrown hairs :/)... but my personal journey has been to come to terms with my body through hard work and even a little therapy.

My dysphoria was very mild compared to what some people go through, of course. More extreme forms of dysphoria should be treated accordingly.



Let me help.
try this one (http://imatyfa.org/research/about/MTF-cc-comp.pdf)
But your view also has support (http://sugarandslugs.wordpress.com/2011/02/)

There's a difference between gender identity and simple hormone levels (as I'm sure you know). Just because you have more testosterone than the average female, doesn't mean your brain thinks you're male. There's plenty of men with low T levels who don't think they're women. So the difference in a "male brain" and "female brain" wouldn't be hormone levels (probably). It'd be something else, something that probably has to do with sense of self.

But it's all still pretty new, scientifically, so I doubt we'll have some super hard evidence until a few more years pass.
There is also this, though (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html).


My personal experience of dysphoria was caused by internalized misogyny. I know the plural of anecdote isn't data, but I certainly think it's very possible that societal issues can actually cause dysmorphia. Using anorexic dysmorphia as an example again, its frequency is highly increased in societies where thinness is ideal, models are all photoshopped to be impossibly thin, and society is obsessed with food, dieting, losing weight, etc.

Working to break down gender roles and break down western society's perception of gender being binary--switching to a more spectrum-oriented conception of gender (and inventing some gorram proper gender-neutral pronouns for EVERYONE to start using in cases where gender is not presented or unknown) ... I believe these things can reduce dysmorphia and reduce the amount of trans people who choose to surgically transition.

I just wanted to reiterate that I call people by their preferred pronouns and I don't give a damn what's in someone's pants unless I'm gonna have sex with said person. I just get really skeptical of trans rhetoric that reinforces gender roles (which historically oppress women...) and reinforces gender as a binary rather than as a spectrum.

Ley
01-10-2014, 08:13 PM
I've spent a very long time debating if I should tell anyone this.

Its a thought that consumes me pretty much 24/7 where I wish I were a man.

Anytime I look in the mirror Im disgusted.

My boyfriend is 100% straight and I want to marry him.

I can't do anything about how I feel.

Bornes
01-11-2014, 05:15 AM
@Tica
I agree with you mostly.
But I think there might be two types of transpeople. Those who would see themselves as the opposite sex even if they were alone on a deserted island with no other humans around, and those that with no social triggers, would probably be cool with not transitioning (physically).

Personally, and I get slammed for this view, I think physical transition is mostly a cosmetic operation. If it's not classified as that, that means we really will have 'gatekeepers' saying "you're not trans enough" and you can't get HRT and surgeries because you're not dysphoric enough. And personally I think that's bullshit. Physical transition is body modification. I see no difference between a transgender person getting SRS because of debilitating dysphoria and a person getting a nose job because of debilitating bullying. Both things are increasingly negatively affecting our lives but only one of them is considered a medical condition. And (honestly) the only reason it's considered a medical condition is because we have no fucking clue how else to deal with it.
My unsubstantiated opinion, of course. I realize it's not a popular one. And feel free to poke holes in it. I like debate.


@Ley
You're treading a very fine line. It's possible to be non-op but it's also possible to be miserable forever for not doing anything about your condition. Have you thought about therapy?

I had finally accepted my fate as super butch female until I joined the Navy. When I was there, I dunno why exactly it happened, but it just clicked and I couldn't live with myself if I didn't transition. Literally. I tried to kill myself several times. That's not something anyone should have to go through. =(

Runefox
01-11-2014, 07:26 AM
SRS and HRT are very different things though. SRS is something that not a lot of transfolk go through for the specific reason that it is considered a cosmetic operation (and not covered by any insurance as a result), not to mention how expensive it is and how much you roll the dice with it looking halfway real. The best MtF vaginoplasty surgeons are tens of thousands of dollars and spread out all over the world (Dr. Suporn in Thailand is supposedly one of the best, as is a doctor in Quebec whose name escapes me). FtM SRS is considered extremely difficult to perform, and both major methods of constructing a penis are not very realistic and not sensate. As a result, both sides of the fence generally don't go through with the surgery. MtF transfolk I know opt for orchidectomy, which is a required step in order to come down from (dangerous in the long term) transition levels of estrogen.

HRT is the real key to transitioning really, as many of the most important changes come from it, including from what I understand it a far lessened state of dysphoria. That said, though, those who don't get SRS can find themselves in difficult positions. There's stories of transwomen being denied emergency care because of their physically male genitals, for instance, though this is largely a societal problem rather than a compelling case to get SRS beyond fear of such rejection.

FishNChips
01-11-2014, 09:09 AM
My gender identity is Tumblr

check my pronouns


To be a bit more useful, I totally get and respect gender dysphoria and transsex people, but the idea of "I'm born male, physically male, I'm comfortable with my male body, but I don't feel very male brain-wise so I want you to refer to me as she/her from now on" is nothing more than an act of gender stereotyping.

It does nothing except promote gender roles, stereotypes, and these social constructs.

Sax
01-11-2014, 10:34 AM
Those who would see themselves as the opposite sex even if they were alone on a deserted island with no other humans around, and those that with no social triggers, would probably be cool with not transitioning (physically).

This is usually the most frustrating aspect for me of this kinds of convos. (As someone who is firmly in that first option.) I have given up ever explaining how transsexual body dysphoria feel. My hypothesis is that is a matter of one of those internal body map in the brain.
It's like about how hormones influence mental thinking and such. Some people don't notice any effects, others have profound ones, and people from the two groups think the others are bullshiting when they talk about their effects (or lack of effects), because they have different agendas when it comes to gender.

I would rather (and actually, in some parts of my life, I do) live perceived as a girl but with a male body, than living as a guy, like I have been doing for 15 years, but still with breasts, smooth skin, a hairless stomach and chest and a high voice and no five o clock shadow.

I slowed down for years my physical transition because it was simply just plain easier at every level (except for my mental well-being) to stay as a masculine het girl. (Hell, even as a kid or teen I never got any problems from being masculine (or from being a girl anyway).)
The hard way was to physically transition, knowing it was gonna be seen as shallow, crazy, shameful, or the easy way out or leaving the lesbian sisterhood or something, even though I'm a gay dude and never was part of lesbian/dyke/queer communities.

One thing I want to say though, is that the big difference between us transsexual folks and anorexics is that they are killing themselves if left to reach their ideal body images, whereas for us our health (physical or mental) get a hell lot better when we physically transition.

Tica
01-11-2014, 01:01 PM
Oh, sure, there is not a full analogy with anorexics and trans transitioning. It's pretty clear that the former is highly likely to kill you, while the latter is becoming safer and safer as medical technology catches up. I just brought up anorexic dysphoria because everyone pretty much acknowledges that if someone has anorexic dysphoria, it can and should be treated with therapy rather than something physical. So it is possible, in *some* cases, to treat dysphoria without changing the body. When it comes to gender transitioning, I believe it possible for someone to CHOOSE to treat their dysphoria either through tackling the mental causes or changing the physical. None of the choices--non-op transitioning, surgically transitioning, or simple gender non-conformity--is morally superior to the others. Some people will utterly require physical transition, and others will not.

Bornes
01-11-2014, 05:50 PM
SRS and HRT are very different things though.
In my post I was talking about both as one commodity "physical transition".

The opinion of insurance companies is that SRS is cosmetic, but for everyone else (it seems), it is medical. If it was 100% cosmetic (as I said my view was) then you would not need the following things to get HRT and/or SRS:
1. proof of therapy (usually 3 months worth)
2. A diagnosis of GID or GD or whatever they're calling it these days

Before the new standards of care came out, you had to have even more things, like living a year as your preferred gender, a requirement of passing before you even got HRT or surgery, having to "prove" you were "[gender] enough" by fitting stereotypes.

As I stated previously, I am/was FtM and have had top surgery and am on HRT and have been legally male for a few years now. So I'm aware of the differences.

We are moving forward in that we have informed consent clinics now for HRT, but in my experience those are few and far between. I think FFS doesn't require as much hoops to jump through as any bottom surgery, which is good, but on the FTM side, you have to get a referral from your own therapist to have top surgery. Which is bullshit in my opinion because... Boobs are not that fucking important. Even if I identify as a ciswoman, I should be allowed to cut my boobs off.

(M)any other cosmetic surgeries only require one therapy session, and that's with someone the surgeon denotes (often the surgeon themself). But if you're female and your cosmetic surgery has something to do with your reproductive system, suddenly you have to be EXTRA EXTRA EXTRA sure and have shittons more therapy. But I suppose that's another problem alltogether not for this thread.

Runefox
01-11-2014, 06:18 PM
Regarding the anorexia analogy... It's hard for someone who doesn't know what anorexia feels like to make the connection between anorexia and gender dysphoria. I would say that as a feeling it's almost more like guilt or depression; It's this ever-present negative feeling you have about yourself, and for a lot of people it takes a long time to figure out what it's all about. But there's more to it than that. There's a feeling that something is wrong, off, like you don't recognize the person staring back at you in the mirror; It's not "you".

This is harder to explain than I thought. Suffice it to say it's not a fun experience.

wwretched
01-20-2014, 01:05 PM
I'm female-assigned genderqueer. I've always felt this way, but up until lately I didn't have the terms to describe it; thank you tumblr! I'm mostly male-presenting and am currently failing at passing. :/ My goal is to get on T and have top surgery, but not bottom surgery. I want to be initially read as male, and then from there I can express my gender however I see fit--looking like a lumberjack one day and a magical girl the other. Not really genderfluid in that aspect--I'll still be genderqueer and use male pronouns, I'll just mix it up! I just want to look like a big bear with a nice full beard and stocky body and hair everywhere!!! ;w;

Dire Newt
01-20-2014, 04:15 PM
I don't see the point in attributing things other than one's anatomy as male or female.

WillowMouse
01-20-2014, 05:03 PM
I think non-dysphoric trans people are annoying, and though I do my best to reserve judgement about whether their condition is real or self-inflicted, they tend to make it challenging for me.

100% not here for that "you aren't really trans!!" stuff

- - - Updated - - -

alright, but like as an intersex trans woman, here's my view.

that whole. "ONLY X COUNTS AS REALLY TRULY TRANSSEXUAL IF YOU DON'T EXPERIENCE X AMOUNT OF DYSPHORIA THEN YOU AREN'T REALLY A TRANS PERSON" is really shitty in that it's used to harass and belittle non-binary people and trans people who don't fit into your narrow whitewashed view of gender.

and I just KNOW that someone is gonna try and say that nonbinary genders aren't real or some shit like that because it happens literally all the time.

pls remember that gender and sex are socially constructed and vary from culture to culture. so going "no only ppl who have THIS MUCH dysphoria are trans! and only the ones who are X!" is not only extremely ignorant, it's borderline racist. (definitely eurocentric though)

Infestissumam
01-21-2014, 12:23 AM
I am of the belief that gender is unimportant, so I haven't worried about what mine is.

Brace
01-21-2014, 12:07 PM
that whole. "ONLY X COUNTS AS REALLY TRULY TRANSSEXUAL IF YOU DON'T EXPERIENCE X AMOUNT OF DYSPHORIA THEN YOU AREN'T REALLY A TRANS PERSON" is really shitty in that it's used to harass and belittle non-binary people and trans people who don't fit into your narrow whitewashed view of gender.

and I just KNOW that someone is gonna try and say that nonbinary genders aren't real or some shit like that because it happens literally all the time.

pls remember that gender and sex are socially constructed and vary from culture to culture. so going "no only ppl who have THIS MUCH dysphoria are trans! and only the ones who are X!" is not only extremely ignorant, it's borderline racist. (definitely eurocentric though)

The idea of "nonbinary trans people" grows out of an equivalency every bit as false as gender = sex. Gender presentation has jack shit to do with the medical condition of transsexuality. How masculine or feminine or variant you are means literally nothing to whether you're transsexual or not. Unfortunately, anti-science SJW's and ivory tower intellectuals who don't give one goddamn about trans people want to promote their pet sociological theories and see trans people as a good vehicle to do so. They've drowned out any meaningful, fact based discussion of trans people as a consequence, handing down vast, dogmatic frameworks complete with their own cult-like language and silencing anyone who points out that the emperor has no clothes with often nonsensical accusations of bigotry.

roboshark
01-21-2014, 01:02 PM
Transsexual dude here. For me it's simply a birth defect so yeah. A very expensive and difficult one but hey.

WillowMouse
01-21-2014, 02:15 PM
The idea of "nonbinary trans people" grows out of an equivalency every bit as false as gender = sex. Gender presentation has jack shit to do with the medical condition of transsexuality. How masculine or feminine or variant you are means literally nothing to whether you're transsexual or not. Unfortunately, anti-science SJW's and ivory tower intellectuals who don't give one goddamn about trans people want to promote their pet sociological theories and see trans people as a good vehicle to do so. They've drowned out any meaningful, fact based discussion of trans people as a consequence, handing down vast, dogmatic frameworks complete with their own cult-like language and silencing anyone who points out that the emperor has no clothes with often nonsensical accusations of bigotry.

dear god I never thought I'd have to use this quote.
"non binary genders have been around since at least ancient egypt in some form or another. what else from 2000 BC you not gonna believe in? Roads? Beer? Locks?"

I'm gonna need you to sit down with you eurocentric whitewashed view of gender ok?

all I'm hearing is a binarist trans person trying to police the identities of other people which is a really shitty thing to do.

(plus as someone who was born intersex, I'm gonna need you to stop talking about how sex is completely binary because you don't know what you're talking about :3 but idk, maybe pointing out "hey I exist" is to anti-science SJW for you)

Lucy Bones
01-21-2014, 02:20 PM
Startin' that estrogen treatment.

Aw yeah.

WillowMouse
01-21-2014, 02:26 PM
Startin' that estrogen treatment.

Aw yeah.

awesome! congratulations. I'm just getting past the year mark myself :3

Brace
01-21-2014, 02:54 PM
dear god I never thought I'd have to use this quote.
"non binary genders have been around since at least ancient egypt in some form or another. what else from 2000 BC you not gonna believe in? Roads? Beer? Locks?"

I'm gonna need you to sit down with you eurocentric whitewashed view of gender ok?

all I'm hearing is a binarist trans person trying to police the identities of other people which is a really shitty thing to do.

(plus as someone who was born intersex, I'm gonna need you to stop talking about how sex is completely binary because you don't know what you're talking about :3 but idk, maybe pointing out "hey I exist" is to anti-science SJW for you)

I'm not denying the existence of what you're describing, just taking issue with your classification of it. Transsexualism used to be and in some circles still is considered a form of homosexuality. What you're doing is like getting angry at transsexuals who claim not to be homosexuals, accusing them of denying the existence of gays, and calling them racist because in many cultures this false conflation still holds.

I didn't say anything about sex being binary either. Pull the rocks out of your ears.

WillowMouse
01-21-2014, 03:04 PM
I'm not denying the existence of what you're describing, just taking issue with your classification of it. Transsexualism used to be and in some circles still is considered a form of homosexuality. What you're doing is like getting angry at transsexuals who claim not to be homosexuals, accusing them of denying the existence of gays, and calling them racist because in many cultures this false conflation still holds.

I didn't say anything about sex being binary either. Pull the rocks out of your ears.

I feel like you're trying to equate non binary gender with being homosexual? I mean I think that's the point you're trying to make. and yes, you're absolutely insisting on sex being binary, in your other posts you've literally insisted that trans people aren't really trans if they haven't literally tried to mutilate their genitals. and that anyone who is even slightly uncaring or even a little ok with their genitals is "not really transsexual" oh my god

Brace
01-21-2014, 03:08 PM
I feel like you're trying to equate non binary gender with being homosexual? (1) I mean I think that's the point you're trying to make. and yes, you're absolutely insisting on sex being binary, in your other posts you've literally insisted that trans people aren't really trans if they haven't literally tried to mutilate their genitals (2). and that anyone who is even slightly uncaring or even a little ok with their genitals is "not really transsexual" oh my god

1) Only within the context of the metaphor
2) Never said anything about surgery or attempted self-mutilation. Dysphoria doesn't necessitate these things any more than hunger necessitates becoming fat.

Anyway, what does any of that have to do with sex being binary?

WillowMouse
01-21-2014, 03:12 PM
1) Only within the context of the metaphor
2) Never said anything about surgery or attempted self-mutilation. Dysphoria doesn't necessitate these things any more than hunger necessitates becoming fat.

Anyway, what does any of that have to do with sex being binary?

k well gender is not sexuality. I never thought I'd have to explain that to another trans person holy shit.
and two, right here.

In a word, no. Let me know when you've attempted to castrate yourself or woken up crying because of your own body.

in other posts you also talked about how that person "wasn't really trans and should be ignored"

Sonata
01-21-2014, 03:14 PM
I am biologically female, but mentally genderfluid. I have always shown male and female behavior, sometimes male behavior is dominant. My mother thinks it's odd that I don't act like the typical feminine female, but it's not in my nature, and only show my feminine side few times. (I even get yelled at for it heh). But everyone else is fine with it, and I am comfortable with it.

Brace
01-21-2014, 03:18 PM
k well gender is not sexuality. I never thought I'd have to explain that to another trans person holy shit.

You didn't. You might consider looking up what a metaphor is, because I've run out of the patience necessary to continue explaining it to other people.


and two, right here.

In a word, no. Let me know when you've attempted to castrate yourself or woken up crying because of your own body.
in other posts you also talked about how that person "wasn't really trans and should be ignored"

Right. I admit to saying that being dysphoric is necessary to be trans. I didn't say self-mutilation is. What I said was equivalent to pointing out that dysphoria is necessary for a self-mutilation attempt. There are other indications of dysphoria as well, the easiest of which is just a person saying they have it, but that only works if the person is capable of giving a trustworthy report of themselves, which I didn't think Lucy was at the time. So, I tried to think of things that I would accept as evidence in lieu of that. It was a highly charged statement and can't be taken exactly literally.

WillowMouse
01-21-2014, 03:21 PM
You didn't. You might consider looking up what a metaphor is, because I've run out of the patience necessary to continue explaining it to other people.



Right. I admit to saying that being dysphoric is necessary to be trans. I didn't say self-mutilation is. What I said was equivalent to pointing out that dysphoria is necessary for a self-mutilation attempt. There are other indications of dysphoria as well, the easiest of which is just a person saying they have it, but that only works if the person is capable of giving a trustworthy report of themselves, which I didn't think Lucy was at the time. So, I tried to think of things that I would accept as evidence in lieu of that. It was a highly charged statement and can't be taken exactly literally.

so why are you the final arbiter of who is really truly transsexual? seems kinda preachy. you literally used that statement to say "well YOUR dysphoria isn't good enough" to her and how you fail to realize that saying that to another trans person is just blatantly cruel is just beyond me.

Brace
01-21-2014, 03:25 PM
so why are you the final arbiter of who is really truly transsexual? seems kinda preachy. you literally used that statement to say "well YOUR dysphoria isn't good enough" to her and how you fail to realize that saying that to another trans person is just blatantly cruel is just beyond me.

I'm not the final arbiter. I say what I think and I can't do anything to stop others from contradicting me, because they each have their own individual brain. By the same token, popular consensus isn't enough to convince me of the merits of a conflicting argument, because I too am an individual with my own thoughts and requirements for believing things. I guess it was cruel. Really the target wasn't her at all though, just the ideas she was carrying, which I think do a lot more harm than good and have become really exasperated with.

WillowMouse
01-21-2014, 03:28 PM
I'm not the final arbiter. I say what I think and I can't do anything to stop others from contradicting me, because they each have their own individual brain. By the same token, popular consensus isn't enough to convince me of the merits of a conflicting argument, because I too am an individual with my own thoughts and requirements for believing things. I guess it was cruel. Really the target wasn't her at all though, just the ideas she was carrying, which I think do a lot more harm than good and have become really exasperated with.

you're the one who turned this thread into a discussion about how much you hate "non-dysphoric" trans people. literally the first post you made on here is "god I can't stand those silly trans ppl who think they're as good as me, the TRUE trans person" you came into this thread with the intent of "debating" these things that you're so "exasperated" with.

Brace
01-21-2014, 03:32 PM
you're the one who turned this thread into a discussion about how much you hate "non-dysphoric" trans people. literally the first post you made on here is "god I can't stand those silly trans ppl who think they're as good as me, the TRUE trans person" you came into this thread with the intent of "debating" these things that you're so "exasperated" with.

In April 2013. Really, you should have just PM'd me, rather than resurrecting a long dead chain of conversation. We probably still should take this to PM. And yeah, I'm naturally an argumentative person, especially about things I care deeply about or things that effect me. Let me just say that you're reading hierarchical undertones into what's really more of a taxonomic discussion. It's true that I tend not to like non-dysphoric and non-binary trans people, but that's more because of the ideas they propagate than because of what they are, which I don't think has any moral character either good or bad.

doublefluffed
01-21-2014, 03:37 PM
It's true that I tend not to like non-dysphoric and non-binary trans people, but that's more because of the ideas they propagate than because of what they are, which I don't think has any moral character either good or bad.


How does someones very existence propagate any ideas? If you honestly don't like anyone who isn't a cookie cutter carbon copy of yourself just say it Instead of attacking other people. All trans* peoples experiences are different and not only does not every experience dysphoria but those who do experience it all experience it differently.

Brace
01-21-2014, 03:40 PM
It doesn't, and that's not what I meant. If you're not going to argue in good faith then we have nothing to talk about.

Lucy Bones
01-21-2014, 03:42 PM
Telling people they aren't the gender they think they are is Brace's specialty.

WillowMouse
01-21-2014, 03:45 PM
Telling people they aren't the gender they think they are is Brace's specialty.

basically. but still, congrats on the estrogen treatments again :D

Lucy Bones
01-21-2014, 03:51 PM
Guys, take it from me, I've had this same argument with Brace many many times. She never changes her argument or tries to at least attempt to sound like a nice, understanding person. Debating with her is 100%, grade-A pointless.

Rory
01-21-2014, 03:54 PM
I'm fine with how I was born, but as a biologist who understands the machinations of Mother Nature, and having a very close friend who's been on T for two years now, I have nothing to offer but empathy and support for anyone going through a transformative process. Just as long as we're all respectful of each other.

doublefluffed
01-21-2014, 03:55 PM
anywho, back on track. Intersex binary transwoman reporting in. Also poly and pan~

Willow
01-21-2014, 03:56 PM
In April 2013. Really, you should have just PM'd me, rather than resurrecting a long dead chain of conversation. We probably still should take this to PM. And yeah, I'm naturally an argumentative person, especially about things I care deeply about or things that effect me. Let me just say that you're reading hierarchical undertones into what's really more of a taxonomic discussion. It's true that I tend not to like non-dysphoric and non-binary trans people, but that's more because of the ideas they propagate than because of what they are, which I don't think has any moral character either good or bad.
And what ideas are those might I ask? Because it sounds more like you dislike them for what they have or lack thereof

Which is gross

WillowMouse
01-21-2014, 04:00 PM
ayyyyyy, you're willow, I'm willow.

~*~*~WILLOWS~*~*~

Willow
01-21-2014, 04:04 PM
ayyyyyy, you're willow, I'm willow.

~*~*~WILLOWS~*~*~
We're multiplying!!

WillowMouse
01-21-2014, 04:18 PM
We're multiplying!!

soon we shall consume all

Dezenerate
01-21-2014, 04:47 PM
Genderfluid, and online.

Claribelle
01-21-2014, 05:26 PM
I identified as female all my life, but lately I've been considering myself gender neutral, and I started using neutral pronouns for myself and it just feels so much better for some reason, even if I still don't really mind the feminine pronouns

Owleyes
01-22-2014, 01:09 AM
I'm fairly genderfluid, but I've always been more comfortable with female pronouns

Bri Mercedes
01-22-2014, 01:43 AM
I'm a girl but I always hung out with guys and not-girly girls. Played with Legos and Hot Wheels more than Barbies. Like to play games with the guys and fiddle with power tools. But I still wear dresses and still like being a girl. So idk what "gender" I would be considered. I wouldn't want anyone calling me "him" or "they". I was made a girl and there's no reason to want to change that.

According to my friends and what I've read, I'm demisexual.

This stuff makes my head hurt. xD Apologies in advance if I come across as ignorant.

Claribelle
01-22-2014, 01:52 AM
I'm a girl but I always hung out with guys and not-girly girls. Played with Legos and Hot Wheels more than Barbies. Like to play games with the guys and fiddle with power tools. But I still wear dresses and still like being a girl. So idk what "gender" I would be considered. I wouldn't want anyone calling me "him" or "they". I was made a girl and there's no reason to want to change that.

According to my friends and what I've read, I'm demisexual.

This stuff makes my head hurt. xD Apologies in advance if I come across as ignorant.

from what you have said, you're considering yourself a girl, therefore your gender is female! It doesn't matter if you're not girly or if you prefer legos over dolls, what matter is what you identify as! And it's alright to be confused by all these things we're talking about in this thread, since most people aren't really informed that well on all the diversity of genders, that's why we're discussing about it!
at least thats what I think this thread is for :V

TheLexicon
01-22-2014, 01:59 AM
Androgynous appearance and mindset. I am unworthy of having a gender.

Krespo
01-22-2014, 02:00 AM
from what you have said, you're considering yourself a girl, therefore your gender is female! It doesn't matter if you're not girly or if you prefer legos over dolls, what matter is what you identify as! And it's alright to be confused by all these things we're talking about in this thread, since most people aren't really informed that well on all the diversity of genders, that's why we're discussing about it!
at least thats what I think this thread is for :V

The important thing is Lego is awesome! It makes me sad seeing so many little girls getting dolls because they're 'supposed' to have them.

Claribelle
01-22-2014, 02:03 AM
Legos are the best, yesss! But I think that parents are slowly stopping to buy toys solely based on what a boy or a girl should have and instead listen to their kids. I worked at a toy store for a while and let me tell you, the number of boys getting kitchen supplies or girls getting legos keeps growing!

dirtypaws
01-22-2014, 07:45 PM
And yeah, I'm naturally an argumentative person, especially about things I care deeply about or things that effect me. Let me just say that you're reading hierarchical undertones into what's really more of a taxonomic discussion. It's true that I tend not to like non-dysphoric and non-binary trans people, but that's more because of the ideas they propagate than because of what they are, which I don't think has any moral character either good or bad.

yea, no doubt there.

i would love to know, pray tell, what sort of ideas non-binary people propagate any more than any ideas an aggressive, radical binary trans-person might propagate. because, i'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that perhaps it's not whether you're binary or non-binary that can create problems but rather whether or not you're an aggressively charged identity-erasing trans person with a hair trigger to jump someone or not.

Brace
01-22-2014, 08:14 PM
yea, no doubt there.

i would love to know, pray tell, what sort of ideas non-binary people propagate any more than any ideas an aggressive, radical binary trans-person might propagate. because, i'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that perhaps it's not whether you're binary or non-binary that can create problems but rather whether or not you're an aggressively charged identity-erasing trans person with a hair trigger to jump someone or not.

In essence, when I say that transsexuality is a medical condition, I don't want to be contradicted and told that actually it's just a matter of expression; that expression trumps need as far as definitions go. It directly conflicts with my personal experiences and identity as a transsexual person. It's not empowering for me but actually negating for me. You talk about erasure and don't understand how your insistence on a philosophical and sociological framework for things, instead of a medical and scientific one, is itself erasing. How it perpetuates the pathologization of transsexualism by offering what's merely a positive spin on traditional psychological concepts. How it undermines the efforts of many to make access to hormones and surgery easier for those who aren't rich. How it denies autonomy for transsexuals by saying that transsexualism means behavior. You think I'm the one pidgeonholing people because I want to tie definitions to fixed, definite things, but you're trying to tie them to the moving goalpost of behavior, meaning that the ultimate criteria for who is and isn't trans ends up defined by shifting community standards. A person says "you aren't acting feminine, therefore you aren't trans" or "you aren't acting like you want to be a woman, therefore you aren't trans". How can I contradict them if expression is what makes the transsexual? How can I explain myself and who I am in this context?

You don't seem to understand the pitched absurdity of trying to convince an insurance company to pay out tens of thousands of dollars over a matter of expression, and that probably has something to do with you not needing any of the medical interventions associated with transsexuals, but I'm not allowed to try and dissociate you from us, to regain any sort of credibility for the medical treatment that I need, because this is "hierarchical and identity-erasing". Trying to define my own person and needs is allegedly equivalent to erasing yours. That's crap. The problem isn't who you are, it's that you're latching onto what doesn't belong to you instead of expressing yourself in a proper and independent way. You're making life so much harder for people like me and you don't give a flying fuck because you want to play dress-up, goddammit, and that's a profound political struggle. You've taken people who are just trying to survive and make their lives liveable and added all this political and philosophical baggage, just hung it around our necks, making it impossible to move forward, and yet we're the villains in this because us trying to live is negating, not to your identity, but to your ability to express it in terms you find convenient but that aren't yours and never were. Right.

Willow
01-23-2014, 12:39 AM
In essence, when I say that transsexuality is a medical condition, I don't want to be contradicted and told that actually it's just a matter of expression; that expression trumps need as far as definitions go.
The problem with labeling it as a medical condition is that it somewhat implies it's something that can be "fixed" by means other than SRS. And a lot of transgender/transsexual people wouldn't consider it a medical condition per se anways so...yeah

Also gender expression =/= gender identity, just so we're clear too. Nevermind that we're arguing two different sides of the same coin but oh well.


It directly conflicts with my personal experiences and identity as a transsexual person.
So in other words, because other people's experiences are different from yours, they're impeding on you? Yes?


A person says "you aren't acting feminine, therefore you aren't trans" or "you aren't acting like you want to be a woman, therefore you aren't trans". How can I contradict them if expression is what makes the transsexual? How can I explain myself and who I am in this context?
I'm not even sure you know what you've written.

However, like I said. Gender identity and expression aren't totally the same thing.



The problem isn't who you are, it's that you're latching onto what doesn't belong to you instead of expressing yourself in a proper and independent way.
Define "proper and independent". Actually don't because whatever explanation you can give is probably gross anyways.


You're making life so much harder for people like me and you don't give a flying fuck because you want to play dress-up, goddammit, and that's a profound political struggle.


and yet we're the villains in this because us trying to live is negating, not to your identity, but to your ability to express it in terms you find convenient but that aren't yours and never were. Right.
These two statements kind of contradict the above. On one hand, express yourself in a "proper and independent way" but on the other, people shouldn't do that because it apparently makes life hard for everyone else. So which is it?
tl;dr: Toxic people such as yourself are part of the reason why a lot of younger trans*people are unsure about coming out about it. Not that you probably care.


---

On topic though: Currently unsure on whether I'd actually want to go on T sometime in the future partly because money but also I hate needles and to my knowledge that's the only way to administer treatments. Not to mention all the therapy involved just to start the process.

So for right now I can only "play dress up" as someone so kindly put it because I am a broke college student. :u

Infestissumam
01-23-2014, 01:39 AM
Legos are the best, yesss! But I think that parents are slowly stopping to buy toys solely based on what a boy or a girl should have and instead listen to their kids. I worked at a toy store for a while and let me tell you, the number of boys getting kitchen supplies or girls getting legos keeps growing!

Interesting you mention this, because lately I have been thinking that with the toys all the kids want nowadays being a phone or computer, that in itself is beginning to tear down the concept of "boy toys" and "girl toys."

piņardilla
01-23-2014, 02:07 AM
Interesting you mention this, because lately I have been thinking that with the toys all the kids want nowadays being a phone or computer, that in itself is beginning to tear down the concept of "boy toys" and "girl toys."

Counterpoint:

http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/191/1264191/1264191_120904084742_laptop_girls_pink.jpg

dirtypaws
01-23-2014, 02:36 AM
In essence, when I say that transsexuality is a medical condition, I don't want to be contradicted and told that actually it's just a matter of expression; that expression trumps need as far as definitions go. It directly conflicts with my personal experiences and identity as a transsexual person. It's not empowering for me but actually negating for me. You talk about erasure and don't understand how your insistence on a philosophical and sociological framework for things, instead of a medical and scientific one, is itself erasing. How it perpetuates the pathologization of transsexualism by offering what's merely a positive spin on traditional psychological concepts. How it undermines the efforts of many to make access to hormones and surgery easier for those who aren't rich. How it denies autonomy for transsexuals by saying that transsexualism means behavior. You think I'm the one pidgeonholing people because I want to tie definitions to fixed, definite things, but you're trying to tie them to the moving goalpost of behavior, meaning that the ultimate criteria for who is and isn't trans ends up defined by shifting community standards. A person says "you aren't acting feminine, therefore you aren't trans" or "you aren't acting like you want to be a woman, therefore you aren't trans". How can I contradict them if expression is what makes the transsexual? How can I explain myself and who I am in this context?

You don't seem to understand the pitched absurdity of trying to convince an insurance company to pay out tens of thousands of dollars over a matter of expression, and that probably has something to do with you not needing any of the medical interventions associated with transsexuals, but I'm not allowed to try and dissociate you from us, to regain any sort of credibility for the medical treatment that I need, because this is "hierarchical and identity-erasing". Trying to define my own person and needs is allegedly equivalent to erasing yours. That's crap. The problem isn't who you are, it's that you're latching onto what doesn't belong to you instead of expressing yourself in a proper and independent way. You're making life so much harder for people like me and you don't give a flying fuck because you want to play dress-up, goddammit, and that's a profound political struggle. You've taken people who are just trying to survive and make their lives liveable and added all this political and philosophical baggage, just hung it around our necks, making it impossible to move forward, and yet we're the villains in this because us trying to live is negating, not to your identity, but to your ability to express it in terms you find convenient but that aren't yours and never were. Right.

so, more or less, you're discussing my rights as a non-binary trans person and the validity of my struggles and basing them on the problems you face in your life as a binary trans woman?

i don't know what sort of superiority complex/oppression olympic nonsense you keep feeding yourself but i fail to see where i am having any sort of negative effect on your life outside of making you have to possibly think of someone besides yourself whenever you babble on about trans issues like you're some sort of spokesperson for them.

the problem is that binary trans people LIKE YOU (not all of them) have this identity-erasing garbage in their minds that thinks that you're entitled to some sort of hierarchy and legitimacy that non-binary people should not have, and we should just be dismissed from the cause because we somehow further your struggles despite having no effect on your precious ability to transition yourself the way you need to. please do tell me how i am doing so much damage to you when, legally, i can never transition how i want to. because, the shit you face as a trans person in today's world, as hateful as it is, is significantly smoother than if you try to transition as non-binary. you're pushing and pushing to make sure the world accepts YOU and treats YOU as a legitimate person while pointing out "but respect my struggles because i'm not like THEM", that being non-binary people. it's the same thing the LGB does to trans people and what cishets do to LGBT people. it's a hateful ladder that involves only getting your way by purposely segregating yourself from another community and making their lives harder than it already is being in a world that makes you sit on a male or female side.

you can whine and cry about how hard i am making your life all you want but the fact remains that you have it significantly easier than non-binary people who want to transition do as the LAW only allows you to transition from male to female or vice versa. you can't get parts of it done and leave others out. you have to do one or the other so until you can convince the law to actually let me further my transition, i suggest you take that "dress-up" ideal you have of non-binary people and sod off. your self-centered ideals do nothing but harm those around you and that is going to do more damage for the transgender community than any non-binary person could dream of.

Sax
01-23-2014, 04:14 AM
A person says "you aren't acting feminine, therefore you aren't trans" or "you aren't acting like you want to be a woman, therefore you aren't trans". How can I contradict them if expression is what makes the transsexual? How can I explain myself and who I am in this context?

People were doing that long before there was loads of people identifying as genderqueer or non-binary, though. It's the shrinks that tied gender expression and behaviors to transsexualism, back then, and kept on keeping the two close.
See for ex p19 of Transsexual Phenomenom, by Harry Benjamin. Out of all criterias of the scale he's using to describe trans people, only a minority refers to hormonal and surgical modifications.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vq3m5yr58gtbv7q/Harry%20Benjamin%20-%20The%20Transsexual%20Phenomenon.pdf

Owleyes
01-23-2014, 04:58 AM
Ah, good to see Brace in here starting up with the usual bull
It just wouldn't be a gender-based thread without her going off on the "I'm the only real trans" special snowflake tirade


tl;dr: Toxic people such as yourself are part of the reason why a lot of younger trans*people are unsure about coming out about it. Not that you probably care.


Thank you Willow

WillowMouse
01-23-2014, 07:22 AM
People were doing that long before there was loads of people identifying as genderqueer or non-binary, though. It's the shrinks that tied gender expression and behaviors to transsexualism, back then, and kept on keeping the two close.
See for ex p19 of Transsexual Phenomenom, by Harry Benjamin. Out of all criterias of the scale he's using to describe trans people, only a minority refers to hormonal and surgical modifications.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vq3m5yr58gtbv7q/Harry%20Benjamin%20-%20The%20Transsexual%20Phenomenon.pdf

Harry Benjamin was a hack though and I wish binarist trans people would stop using his outdated and disproven stuff to shit on anyone who isn't a "good enough transsexual" in their eyes.

- - - Updated - - -

in regaurds to a certain trans woman in this thread, binarist "truscum" are gross and are the reason so many non-binary youth (AND EVEN BINARY TRANS YOUTH WHO HAVEN'T FULLY FIGURED THEMSELVES OUT YET) don't come out, don't have any explanation for what they feel and their experiences because the ONE thing they found that fits is apparently not good enough.

god the fact that some trans people can turn around and blatantly shit on other trans people's gender identities like that because they're so elitist and think that the only way to be a "true transsexual" is to fit into this really narrow medical definition (which was created by cis people and even some virulent transphobes) is just so heartbreaking and frustrating and angering.
god that's the exact same shit the cis LGB community did to us. they turned on us and viciously tore into us with the same bigotry that cishets did to them, just because we were seen as a hindrance to their cause.

it's selfish and elitist and cruel.
people like that terrify me.

Sax
01-23-2014, 10:50 AM
Harry Benjamin was a hack though and I wish binarist trans people would stop using his outdated and disproven stuff to shit on anyone who isn't a "good enough transsexual" in their eyes.


Man, in the early 90's, here in france, very conservative transsexual folks began to call themselves "feminine (or masculine) benjamin's syndrome". When I saw this kind of thing surfacing in the late 2000's (?) in the usa. I was like: :(

Fay V
01-23-2014, 11:08 AM
guys, I understand this is very personal and emotional, and I understand you are upset about things that have been said. If this sort of highly charged commentary continues we may have to shut the thread down. Please shift topic slightly toward something more positive. If you want to continue a specific discussion with a person please take it to PM and be respectful. As always if someone is insulting or harassing in any way please report it (even PMs)

I'd like to see this thread continue without people being made to feel like shit for how they are, what they choose to be, or what they want to be, and we need to avoid name calling and accusations all together. Thanks.

WillowMouse
01-23-2014, 05:18 PM
Man, in the early 90's, here in france, very conservative transsexual folks began to call themselves "feminine (or masculine) benjamin's syndrome". When I saw this kind of thing surfacing in the late 2000's (?) in the usa. I was like: :(

Ah! a francofur, I'm actually learning french :3
but like, I'm glad that the majority of the trans community are largely moving away from that gross HBS crap. it's mostly a select few using it to push their "true transsexual" BS

doublefluffed
01-24-2014, 09:11 PM
I just found out my little sister is going to be starting transition in September! 2 trans people in the same family surely must be rare. Though we are both binary trans people, it is interesting to see that she is a lesbian whereas I am pan. Then again I am also intersex and I am fairly sure I am the only one in the family who is.

Daisy La Liebre
01-30-2014, 06:05 PM
Transwoman here.

I have the feeling I'll be more confident in my gender identity when I get the opportunity to express it more.

sassyspectre
01-30-2014, 08:07 PM
Idk what I am but I'm deffo NB. That's as far into detail as I can go before I start to feel sad. But I totally feel Lucy on the surgery thing. As an afab it's tough because there aren't really great options for bottom surgery so I don't really have a choice and it's such a drastic and permanant decision it freaks me out just thinking about it.

certifiedkowaidad
01-31-2014, 12:14 AM
The only people that get on my nerves are people who think gender identity has to have rules.

To me, people ought to be able to identify however they please, regardless of parts.

That's what I never got. If it doesn't have form, then it isn't an actual thing. What does it mean to "identify as male" when you define "male" as "whatever you want male to be, I don't know?" If you're going to deconstruct gender as meaningless labels, doesn't it make sense to stop using junk-based labels? "You can't define me! ...Or you can, but not by my junk!"

TeenageAngst
01-31-2014, 12:28 AM
If you're going to deconstruct gender as meaningless labels, doesn't it make sense to stop using junk-based labels? "You can't define me! ...Or you can, but not by my junk!"

Because it's never about a person learning to define themselves without the use of gender-specific labels, if it was then I think a lot more trans people would be a lot happier. It's always about making sure everyone else accommodates their mode of thinking. YOU might not define yourself as such and such a gender, but someone else might. This is cause for correction, for duress, for frustration, for… whatever.

Willow
01-31-2014, 12:43 AM
That's what I never got. If it doesn't have form, then it isn't an actual thing.
The problem with that statement is that just because you can't see it or has a form doesn't necessarily mean it's not a thing. Unless the wording of that statement is just super weird.

It's really a concept and a social construct and all of these other fancy terms. I think what Lucy is referring to is more or less people who believe there's only one way to present as a gender (or lack thereof) though. Which kind of contradicts the entire idea that gender is fluid or not binary :B


What does it mean to "identify as male" when you define "male" as "whatever you want male to be, I don't know?" If you're going to deconstruct gender as meaningless labels, doesn't it make sense to stop using junk-based labels? "You can't define me! ...Or you can, but not by my junk!"
Eh. That depends on who you talk to I guess. Most people (that I know of) don't want to deconstruct gender as a whole. Just the idea of the gender binary and its many limitations.

----UPDATE----


Because it's never about a person learning to define themselves without the use of gender-specific labels, if it was then I think a lot more trans people would be a lot happier. It's always about making sure everyone else accommodates their mode of thinking. YOU might not define yourself as such and such a gender, but someone else might. This is cause for correction, for duress, for frustration, for… whatever.
Yeah pretty much :I

Though it's gotten a lot better I think. The biggest problem is well not only trying to find words that will please and include everyone, but getting people to agree to that and use them once they're agreed upon.

It's a process.

piņardilla
01-31-2014, 12:46 AM
That's what I never got. If it doesn't have form, then it isn't an actual thing. What does it mean to "identify as male" when you define "male" as "whatever you want male to be, I don't know?" If you're going to deconstruct gender as meaningless labels, doesn't it make sense to stop using junk-based labels? "You can't define me! ...Or you can, but not by my junk!"

You can decide the existing labels don't apply to you without disputing that those labels do have meaning.

TeenageAngst
01-31-2014, 12:52 AM
Though it's gotten a lot better I think. The biggest problem is well not only trying to find words that will please and include everyone, but getting people to agree to that and use them once they're agreed upon.

It's a process.

I think the biggest problem is people need to realize not everyone knows or cares enough about gender issues to go through the verbal and mental gymnastics necessary to be politically correct. This is a problem with enthusiasts of most lifestyles and/or hobbies so it's not really something unique to gender identity but I'll say it's pretty prevalent.

Willow
01-31-2014, 12:59 AM
I think the biggest problem is people need to realize not everyone knows or cares enough about gender issues to go through the verbal and mental gymnastics necessary to be politically correct. This is a problem with enthusiasts of most lifestyles and/or hobbies so it's not really something unique to gender identity but I'll say it's pretty prevalent.
That's with about anything else really. Which okay, fine. You obviously can't win them all but it's more about winning rights and stuff like that in places where it will matter. Like healthcare and jobs and school.

The most people want is respect and to be recognized and that's about it imo.


The details of the gymnastics involved:

"So what would you like to be called?"
"Megan, with female pronouns, please."
"Okay."
Unless they use pronouns like xie, hir, etc.

That may take a little more explaining because they're not widely used.

piņardilla
01-31-2014, 12:59 AM
I think the biggest problem is people need to realize not everyone knows or cares enough about gender issues to go through the verbal and mental gymnastics necessary to be politically correct. This is a problem with enthusiasts of most lifestyles and/or hobbies so it's not really something unique to gender identity but I'll say it's pretty prevalent.

The details of the gymnastics involved:

"So what would you like to be called?"
"Megan, with female pronouns, please."
"Okay."

certifiedkowaidad
01-31-2014, 01:03 AM
The problem with that statement is that just because you can't see it or has a form doesn't necessarily mean it's not a thing. Unless the wording of that statement is just super weird.

I mean you don't have to be able to see something for it to be a thing. But it if isn't something, it can't be any thing. So more form as in content? And not form as in something with molecules in it. You know, "I identify as 'X,' with 'X' being 'anything I want X to be." If you're going to use "X" as a variable, someone needs to define it; this is basic algebra, my ten-year-old can do that and she's honestly not even all that smart.


The details of the gymnastics involved:

"So what would you like to be called?"
"Megan, with female pronouns, please."
"Okay."

Why do people have to make things so complicated, Avril. Seems like there's no way to please everyone; though fortunately, real-life people don't have the vitriol about it as does the Internet. I've never in my life heard someone throw a stink about pronouns outside the safety of a computer. Usually it's just, "oh, actually it's (TERM HERE) if that's okay," and then that's the end of it. Which is reasonable but sometimes confusing to remember.

TeenageAngst
01-31-2014, 01:08 AM
The details of the gymnastics involved:

"So what would you like to be called?"
"Megan, with female pronouns, please."
"Okay."

In computers:

"What's that you're playing on?"
"An AMD hexcore with 7850 Radeon graphics card, 8gb DDR3 1333mhz, Coolermaster tower with multi-monitor display."
"Okay."

In cars:

"I like your Miata."
"It's not a Miata, it's a third generation MX-5 with a turbo kit boosted to 10lbs., vented brake rotors with high boiling point fluid and steel braided cables, lowered suspension, and Yokohama sport tires."
"Okay."

In currency:

"I like your collection."
"It's a menagerie of 17th century European moneys used throughout the colonial period including colonial printed bills and stamped coinage."
"Okay."

Willow
01-31-2014, 01:08 AM
I mean you don't have to be able to see something for it to be a thing. But it if isn't something, it can't be any thing. So more form as in content? And not form as in something with molecules in it. You know, "I identify as 'X,' with 'X' being 'anything I want X to be." If you're going to use "X" as a variable, someone needs to define it; this is basic algebra, my ten-year-old can do that and she's honestly not even all that smart.
I got it now. I figured that's what you meant but wasn't entirely sure, which is why I didn't give any examples.

But I still wouldn't venture as far as to say gender itself isn't a thing. Just the gender binary isn't a thing.
Gender means different things to different people and all that jazz.

piņardilla
01-31-2014, 01:15 AM
In computers:

"What's that you're playing on?"
"An AMD hexcore with 7850 Radeon graphics card, 8gb DDR3 1333mhz, Coolermaster tower with multi-monitor display."
"Okay."

In cars:

"I like your Miata."
"It's not a Miata, it's a third generation MX-5 with a turbo kit boosted to 10lbs., vented brake rotors with high boiling point fluid and steel braided cables, lowered suspension, and Yokohama sport tires."
"Okay."

In currency:

"I like your collection."
"It's a menagerie of 17th century European moneys used throughout the colonial period including colonial printed bills and stamped coinage."
"Okay."

:rolleyes: This is so ridiculously hyperbolic as to not even warrant a response.

TeenageAngst
01-31-2014, 01:18 AM
It's pretty much what the world would be like if every other lifestyle/hobby had the same pedantic requirements as gender identity and it's various offshoots.

piņardilla
01-31-2014, 01:27 AM
because "refer to me as 'she' please" is so pedantic

AineCleine
01-31-2014, 01:28 AM
I... I donīt know. This topic is complicated in a world that have such a fixated way of thinking. I just to stay supportive for people with this dsyphoria and its characteristics. They are human beings like everyone and they deserve everything any individual should have. I just try to be a good guy.

TeenageAngst
01-31-2014, 01:30 AM
because "refer to me as 'she' please" is so pedantic

Have you not been reading the topic? "She" infers female gender identity, under which the person with such a label is assumed to be female, however gender is a fluid and gradient thing akin to sexuality under which a person cannot simply be defined as merely a "he" or a "she" but as a person with a list of traits that are both masculine and feminine so as to fully express the depth of the person being mentioned. This goes far beyond pronouns, this is a matter of personal expression and not being confined to traditional binary roles. Stop being so insensitive to the complexities at play here.

piņardilla
01-31-2014, 01:34 AM
Have you not been reading the topic? "She" infers female gender identity, under which the person with such a label is assumed to be female, however gender is a fluid and gradient thing akin to sexuality under which a person cannot simply be defined as merely a "he" or a "she" but as a person with a list of traits that are both masculine and feminine so as to fully express the depth of the person being mentioned. This goes far beyond pronouns, this is a matter of personal expression and not being confined to traditional binary roles. Stop being so insensitive to the complexities at play here.

which is why, if it's so damn complicated to you, you simply ask what their pronoun preference is

AineCleine
01-31-2014, 01:36 AM
How do you ask someone with this characteristics that question?? There isnīt a more subtle way to do that?? Iīve never known someone like this so yeah...

TeenageAngst
01-31-2014, 01:39 AM
How do you ask someone with this characteristics that question?? There isnīt a more subtle way to do that?? Iīve never known someone like this so yeah...

That's what he doesn't understand, simply implying that a person's gender can be encapsulated in a pronoun is inherently limiting the mental projection of that person as a "man" or a "woman" without taking into account the mixed underlying tones. If someone identify's as a "she" it is because of a variety or reasons and the outside observer should be aware of these before assuming the "she" monicker is one that they've taken out of choice or by birth or what have you.

piņardilla
01-31-2014, 01:44 AM
How do you ask someone with this characteristics that question?? There isnīt a more subtle way to do that?? Iīve never known someone like this so yeah...

"What would you like to be called?" or "What should I refer to you as?" work just fine.


That's what he doesn't understand, simply implying that a person's gender can be encapsulated in a pronoun is inherently limiting the mental projection of that person as a "man" or a "woman" without taking into account the mixed underlying tones. If someone identify's as a "she" it is because of a variety or reasons and the outside observer should be aware of these before assuming the "she" monicker is one that they've taken out of choice or by birth or what have you.

I have seen literally zero people ever insist that they cannot be referred to with a pronoun. Occasionally you see someone request you use an invented pronoun, but it's still a trivial accomodation that hardly constitutes "mental gymnastics".

Willow
01-31-2014, 01:52 AM
How do you ask someone with this characteristics that question?? There isnīt a more subtle way to do that?? Iīve never known someone like this so yeah...
Depends on the person. Usually just asking someone their preferred pronouns if you just don't know and don't want to offend them works. Unless you ask it in a really intrusive way, most won't get angry and might even be glad you even thought to ask.

And depending on the person, they may be willing to just answer any questions you have regarding that. But I wouldn't go around doing that and only really save it for people you know on a more personal level.

Fun fact: the first time someone asked me what my preferred pronouns were I was actually taken by surprise because it's not something people tend to do just automatically. And I think part of the reason why is because the same part of the brain responsible for recognizing human faces is also responsible for just recognizing human and/or male and female bodies.

But that might just be a theory.

irick
01-31-2014, 08:02 AM
I try to be mindful of what those around me wish to be identified as, though I slip up occasionally. I've debated starting to use gender neutral language, but It's really difficult to hack my english into using it. I'm aware of natural gender neutral pronouns such as ou and it, but ou gets strange looks and it has a slightly degrading connotation because of its use for objects primarily rather than people. I do default to singular they a lot when speaking in the third person.

Gender is an odd topic for me. I don't really consider the concept of gender as being. That is, I think it's an artificial denotation, it describes a set of societal expectations for the individual. In my mind, saying "X is my gender" is saying "I have accepted the cultural obligations of being x." As such, it seems obvious to me that there will be those who will choose to accept the obligations of female, or the obligations of male, or the obligations of both. However, it is not so. For some reason the obligations that you are expected to take seem defined by your biological sex.

This is strange to me. There are obviously females who are suited for male roles and males who are suited for female roles. Even if there was some general trend of capability it must be acknowledged that having someone fulfill some cultural obligation they are not suited for is not desirable, and that every person is going to have unique attributes which should be taken into consideration when they choose how to live. Furthermore, everyone should be able to explore the activities they may be suited for.

As such, looking down at my groin I have to say I have a penis. However, my mind is an illusion, it can be anything that can be imagined because it can only exist in the realm of the mind. So, one is anything one wishes to be, irrespective of biology insofar as it is physically possible. Outside the realm of the mind, there may be limitations to biology but to limit the ability to see oneself in the mind? Why? Should we not instead rejoice in our ability to be what we see in the mind?

I have of recent made it a point to explore identity. As such, I am still forming my understanding, but one finds it silly to impose artificial limitations.

Brace
01-31-2014, 08:50 AM
The prevailing academic wisdom:



Gender
Sex


Expression
Genitals


Identity
Chromosomes


Preference
Genes


Behavior
Secondary characteristics



Wherein Gender is 100% subjective and therefore whether you're male or female or other gendered has all the significance of whether you're a geek or jock or goth or emo in high school.

My hugely oppressive model that prevents young people from transitioning and undermines the trans community and supports HBS pathologization and causes dogs and cats to sleep together and volcanoes to erupt across the earth:



Gender
Sex


Expression
Genitals


Identity
Chromosomes


Preference
Genes


Behavior
Secondary characteristics



Brain structure



Wherein "gender" still gets to mean whatever the fuck, since that's been established as common use, but transsexualism is now defined as the condition of having the Brain Structure attribute of a sex but less than 100% of the other attributes of the same sex. Oh, and gender becomes entirely irrelevant. Fuck gender.

Everyone hates the clean disentanglement of fact from identity for some reason though. Gosh I wonder why.

lorenith
01-31-2014, 09:57 AM
I don't typically make any assumptions about what someones sexuality is, because it is also not important to me. I'm not going to be sleeping with so and so regardless of their sex/gender, so it's not an important factor to me.

As far as gender goes, I don't really understand what defines a gender outside of social constructs. So gender is a really abstract thing to me, and I'm pretty bad at abstractions...Gender doesn't define what a person can or can't do, or how they behave so it isn't a super important characteristic for me.

In saying that I do understand that it is important to be called by the proper descriptor though. I'm female, but on several occasions have been referred to as "sir" and it's always really annoyed me. Even if it isn't broadly important, that I am a she is still a part of my identity, even if I have no understanding of what makes me a she or why other than that I have female parts. I suppose for me, he/she is just an indication of sex, and not gender.

Edit: I'm going to have to say citation needed please on the different sexes have different brain structures.

Lucy Bones
01-31-2014, 02:17 PM
Personally, I can't be assed to worry about semantics.

Especially since the English language is ass-retarded.

Brace
01-31-2014, 02:28 PM
Edit: I'm going to have to say citation needed please on the different sexes have different brain structures.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10843193

This is the only one that really matters. There are some other structures that are correlated with sex but not strongly.

certifiedkowaidad
01-31-2014, 02:39 PM
"I have seen literally zero people ever insist that they cannot be referred to with a pronoun. Occasionally you see someone request you use an invented pronoun, but it's still a trivial accomodation that hardly constitutes "mental gymnastics".

Language is the easy part; it's concrete and obvious. "Use 'xie?' Okay, I'll just say 'xie' and I guess we're done here." I feel the "mental gymnastics" comes around the complexities of "gender" versus "sex." It's not always easy to regard someone who identifies as female-to-male as purely male; biological men and women are fundamentally different, despite the variations that occur between any two people of one given sex. Additionally, having lived as a man or woman for the first stretch of one's life changes one's expectations on how they act and are treated. Any trans person is going to face social norms that shape their self-concept from birth. Won't there be social artifacts held over from the time when they lived as the opposite sex? Does that complicate things? Letting go of mannerisms that clearly communicate one's sex.

I don't have the personal lived experience as a trans-person, but in my own experience, many newly-identified trans people live in a androgynous zone between male and female. Just flipping my "male register" to my "female register" doesn't work. Conversation is harder and more stilted, people tend to get confused or offended. If it's not just me, maybe this is something that goes away after you've lived outwardly as another gender for some time and it happily goes away by itself.

Lucy Bones
01-31-2014, 02:39 PM
And here we are, still arguing semantics.

What a pointless discussion.

PapayaShark
01-31-2014, 02:57 PM
.

piņardilla
01-31-2014, 03:51 PM
Language is the easy part; it's concrete and obvious. "Use 'xie?' Okay, I'll just say 'xie' and I guess we're done here." I feel the "mental gymnastics" comes around the complexities of "gender" versus "sex." It's not always easy to regard someone who identifies as female-to-male as purely male; biological men and women are fundamentally different, despite the variations that occur between any two people of one given sex. Additionally, having lived as a man or woman for the first stretch of one's life changes one's expectations on how they act and are treated. Any trans person is going to face social norms that shape their self-concept from birth. Won't there be social artifacts held over from the time when they lived as the opposite sex? Does that complicate things? Letting go of mannerisms that clearly communicate one's sex.

I don't have the personal lived experience as a trans-person, but in my own experience, many newly-identified trans people live in a androgynous zone between male and female. Just flipping my "male register" to my "female register" doesn't work. Conversation is harder and more stilted, people tend to get confused or offended. If it's not just me, maybe this is something that goes away after you've lived outwardly as another gender for some time and it happily goes away by itself.

It's a lot easier if you aren't treating men and women differently in the first place (as you shouldn't be).

TeenageAngst
01-31-2014, 06:41 PM
I dunno guys, I'm trying to enjoy this whole gender identity lifestyle/hobby but it's just not my cup of tea. I mean yeah it's fun getting angry at people who aren't PC enough but there's just so much to remember @_@ it's like my entire view of reality has to shift to accommodate all these new possibilities and it's confusing because the english language hasn't evolved that far yet, idk. It's like when I became a car geek and couldn't enjoy driving my Honda anymore.

Runefox
01-31-2014, 07:04 PM
And here we are, still arguing semantics.

What a pointless discussion.

This is pretty much why I wasn't too offended when another transgender post popped up.

doublefluffed
01-31-2014, 10:45 PM
And here we are, still arguing semantics.

What a pointless discussion.

If you felt this way why did you feel it necessary to comment?

certifiedkowaidad
01-31-2014, 11:07 PM
It's a lot easier if you aren't treating men and women differently in the first place (as you shouldn't be).

Is it wrong to treat men like men and women like women? Non-trans people do identify as their gender. And men and women of any given group do have their own particular ways of speaking and acting. Not all identical, no, but I've yet to meet someone my whole life who can clearly fit in the opposite gender camp. That doesn't have to be a bad thing; different doesn't have to mean unequal.

Willow
01-31-2014, 11:20 PM
Is it wrong to treat men like men and women like women?
That's quite a loaded question :s

Brace
01-31-2014, 11:24 PM
Is it wrong to treat men like men and women like women? Non-trans people do identify as their gender. And men and women of any given group do have their own particular ways of speaking and acting. Not all identical, no, but I've yet to meet someone my whole life who can clearly fit in the opposite gender camp. That doesn't have to be a bad thing; different doesn't have to mean unequal.

Have you considered the possibility that you might be interpreting the same behaviors in different ways based on physical characteristics? For instance, if a very large man is standing very close, screaming at you while talking with his hands, that would be aggressive, but a woman doing the same thing would be hysterical, even though those are the same behaviors.

lorenith
01-31-2014, 11:29 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10843193

This is the only one that really matters. There are some other structures that are correlated with sex but not strongly.

Neat, although I'd like to see more studies on it before really accepting it as a thing.

Brains are so weird.

WillowMouse
02-01-2014, 01:38 AM
why did this thread get derailed again by cis people trying to be transphobic

lorenith
02-01-2014, 02:37 AM
why did this thread get derailed again by cis people trying to be transphobic

I'm rather curious what exactly counts as "transphobic" behavior, since the thread looks like a bunch of people talking about gender and things?

TeenageAngst
02-01-2014, 03:20 AM
Serious face for a moment, this is one thing that's always bothered me about gender identity and I've never gotten a straight answer about it. Just what in sam hill is so bad about gender roles to begin with? I mean yeah I can see how being forced to follow them would suck, being forced to do anything you don't like sucks, but it seems the mere concept of them is viewed as outdated or somehow wrong.

Krespo
02-01-2014, 03:31 AM
Serious face for a moment, this is one thing that's always bothered me about gender identity and I've never gotten a straight answer about it. Just what in sam hill is so bad about gender roles to begin with? I mean yeah I can see how being forced to follow them would suck, being forced to do anything you don't like sucks, but it seems the mere concept of them is viewed as outdated or somehow wrong.

I think you just answered your own question. My point of confusion is if you get rid of gender roles, why bother making a big deal out of gender? Those 'roles' seemed to be the entire point of the concept.

TeenageAngst
02-01-2014, 03:48 AM
See I don't personally mind gender roles. They're not something people are forced into these days so it's pretty much a social "default option" which seems to work okay 99 times out of 100.

Krespo
02-01-2014, 03:52 AM
See I don't personally mind gender roles. They're not something people are forced into these days so it's pretty much a social "default option" which seems to work okay 99 times out of 100.

To be fair, you're cisgender like me. Naturally you'd have a different outlook on gender roles than a transperson. I'd imagine it's comparable to a woman explaining what a period feels like to man, or a man telling a woman what it's like being kicked in the balls.

TeenageAngst
02-01-2014, 03:57 AM
To be fair, you're cisgender like me. Naturally you'd have a different outlook on gender roles than a transperson. I'd imagine it's comparable to a woman explaining what a period feels like to man, or a man telling a woman what it's like being kicked in the balls.

Don't call me "cisgender" that makes it sound like I had a botched circumcision or something. Anyway, that doesn't make my viewpoint or expectations any less valid. Society has basic expectations of me as a guy, and I meet most of them. Some of them I eschew out of preference but that's just me and I expect people to not automatically assume I'm into non-typical guy things.

Sacch
02-01-2014, 04:00 AM
See I don't personally mind gender roles. They're not something people are forced into these days so it's pretty much a social "default option" which seems to work okay 99 times out of 100.

I know this is an overused example, but the media very much does "force" people into gender roles- subtly. Think of little kids' toys for example!

On TV these days, and it's still often seen, boys are expected/advertised to play with things like Transformers, Hot Wheels, and G.I. Joe while little girls are expected/advertised to play with Easy Bake Ovens, Barbies, Princess toys, and the like. This is subconsciously done and starts from a VERY young age. I've seen some articles on stories where little boys wanted to wear girl costumes for Halloween and their parent let them, only to receive judgmental and nasty feedback from other parents- just because a child wanted to dress the way they wanted for a day that comes once a year, for pretend and imagination.

As we grow older the media affects us in our teenage years. Girls read magazines like Seventeen and Teen Vogue. I guarantee you that 95% of these magazines involve fashion, makeup, gossip, and "tips" for how to attract boys. These magazines enforce the stereotype that girls should be feminine and submissive. Boys magazines (if they bother to read them!) cater to things like sports. Sports illustrated and Men's Health are good examples of these.

And let me just leave this here:
If you have to advertise a FOOD "JUST FOR MEN," there is a problem. (http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2013/03/15/yogurt-001-fd92cce9ccf5502acbe5c89f9803cc0758d04894-s6-c30.jpg) I know a lot of people online hate the word "patriarchy" and the idea behind it that it enforces gender role on women. But it enforces roles on both genders! Women are expected to be classy, subtle, feminine, innocent, and sexually submissive- men are expected to be strong, masculine, muscular, powerful, etc.

And honestly- I think the "MEN'S YOGURT" says it all. God forbid a man decides to eat Yoplait because it tastes good. That must make him weak because he's not eating YOGURT FOR MEN!!!! (Sorry for so much emphasis! I'm not trying to be condescending, just trying to get across how silly that idea is.)

We are not really "forced" into these gender roles most of the time, but we are subtly/subconsciously encouraged to partake in them starting from childhood. It's a form of socialization, and it can really suck.

I hope this makes things a little more clear, and easier to understand. ♥

TeenageAngst
02-01-2014, 04:11 AM
We are not really "forced" into these gender roles most of the time, but we are subtly/subconsciously encouraged to partake in them starting from childhood. It's a form of socialization, and it can really suck.

Because it's normal. Like I said, unless you and I have very different views of "forced" I don't see the issue here. I for one never had issues watching stuff like Clarissa Explains It All or Sailor Moon as a kid, I played girls games with my friends from time to time, and I watched Power Rangers and did typical boy stuff too.

As for the media making mens this and women's that, no one I know actually buys into that stuff because we're thinking human beings who aren't at the mercy of corporate marketing for security in our masculinity or femininity as the case may be. Anyone who honestly thinks not buying the men's foodstuff is not masculine has deeper issues.

Sacch
02-01-2014, 04:12 AM
Don't call me "cisgender" that makes it sound like I had a botched circumcision or something.

Cisgender is not meant to be offensive! It's simply a term meaning you identify as the sex you were born with. :) It's not a personal attack, so please try not to take it that way! I know that when I first heard the term "cisgender" I was VERY confused, so it's okay to be thrown off by it when you've never heard of it before.

"Cis" and "trans" are terms used in chemistry, particularly for isomers. "Cis" means "on the same side of," while "trans" means "across, beyond, or on the opposite side." Many words in the English language are created by combining certain existing words with prefixes, and this is exactly what the words "cisgender" and "transgender" were intended to be.

It's in no way meant to be rude or offensive toward you, but used as a label (and not a bad one). Calling cisgender people "normal" would be offensive because it implies that trans* individuals of any kind are not.

- - - Updated - - -


As for the media making mens this and women's that, no one I know actually buys into that stuff because we're thinking human beings who aren't at the mercy of corporate marketing for security in our masculinity or femininity as the case may be. Anyone who honestly thinks not buying the men's foodstuff is not masculine has deeper issues.

Honestly, you'd be surprised. ;~; But thank you for the civil response! I will agree to disagree.

Krespo
02-01-2014, 04:16 AM
Don't call me "cisgender" that makes it sound like I had a botched circumcision or something. Anyway, that doesn't make my viewpoint or expectations any less valid. Society has basic expectations of me as a guy, and I meet most of them. Some of them I eschew out of preference but that's just me and I expect people to not automatically assume I'm into non-typical guy things.

Would you prefer 'cissy' for short? :v

I never fully understood the term, but after reading Sacch's explanation I think it's quite clever.

Sacch
02-01-2014, 04:17 AM
I never fully understood the term, but after reading Sacch's explanation I think it's quite clever.

Thank you so much, I'm glad I was able to offer some clarity! ;v;

TeenageAngst
02-01-2014, 04:18 AM
I know what cisgender means, but I also think it's pedantic and a rather sad attempt at differentiation by labeling normal people in such a way that they're somehow less valued in the affirmative action society. It's the 21st century version of "whitey" or "cracker".


Honestly, you'd be surprised.

Oh I know, I've met those people, they certainly exist but they're not the norm. Oddly enough there tend to be a lot of them in the military which adds to my smug superiority regarding soldiers but that's another kettle of fish.

piņardilla
02-01-2014, 04:20 AM
And let me just leave this here:
If you have to advertise a FOOD "JUST FOR MEN," there is a problem. (http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2013/03/15/yogurt-001-fd92cce9ccf5502acbe5c89f9803cc0758d04894-s6-c30.jpg) I know a lot of people online hate the word "patriarchy" and the idea behind it that it enforces gender role on women. But it enforces roles on both genders! Women are expected to be classy, subtle, feminine, innocent, and sexually submissive- men are expected to be strong, masculine, muscular, powerful, etc.

And honestly- I think the "MEN'S YOGURT" says it all. God forbid a man decides to eat Yoplait because it tastes good. That must make him weak because he's not eating YOGURT FOR MEN!!!! (Sorry for so much emphasis! I'm not trying to be condescending, just trying to get across how silly that idea is.)

But yogurt is totally a woman's food! They love it almost as much as they love laughing while eating a salad (https://www.google.com/search?q=woman+laughing+with+salad&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X)!

Krespo
02-01-2014, 04:22 AM
But yogurt is totally a woman's food! They love it almost as much as they love laughing while eating a salad (https://www.google.com/search?q=woman+laughing+with+salad&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X)!

"This salad is fucking hilarious" - Every Woman Ever

Sacch
02-01-2014, 04:22 AM
I know what cisgender means, but I also think it's pedantic and a rather sad attempt at differentiation by labeling normal people

I... think you missed the point. I will restate what I said.


Calling cisgender people "normal" would be offensive because it implies that trans* individuals of any kind are not.

Trans* individuals are normal, too, and you dehumanize them with the wording you chose, even if it's not intentional. They are human beings and are not to be considered abnormal because they are unhappy with the gender they are born with. Their personalities don't change. People are much less afraid to come out and be themselves these days, so that's why trans* individuals have increased in number- many of them were too afraid to come out. We still have a long way to go in terms of full acceptance, but there has been a good deal of progress.

- - - Updated - - -


But yogurt is totally a woman's food! They love it almost as much as they love laughing while eating a salad (https://www.google.com/search?q=woman+laughing+with+salad&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X)!

I honestly never understood the salad thing. I think it's funny but some stock photos are just strange to me, haha. In what situation would you need something THAT specific?

TeenageAngst
02-01-2014, 04:29 AM
It's not dehumanizing to consider an attribute someone possesses not normal. It's not normal that I never went to highschool, it's not normal that I went to college anyway. It's not normal for a person to not fit the traditional gender role, and it's not normal to be a white person in northern Philadelphia. It's only dehumanizing if they define themselves by that single characteristic. There's a difference between a transgender and a normal person who happens to also be transgender.

piņardilla
02-01-2014, 04:29 AM
I honestly never understood the salad thing. I think it's funny but some stock photos are just strange to me, haha. In what situation would you need something THAT specific?

Pretty much nobody likes to eat just a salad, so they have to make them look really damn happy to be eating a salad to compensate. It's almost always a woman eating the salad, because women need to eat salad as part of their responsibility to strive to conform to the supermodel ideal of beauty as they are ornaments first and people second.

TeenageAngst
02-01-2014, 04:32 AM
Pretty much nobody likes to eat just a salad, so they have to make them look really damn happy to be eating a salad to compensate. It's almost always a woman eating the salad, because women need to eat salad as part of their responsibility to strive to conform to the supermodel ideal of beauty as they are ornaments first and people second.

No one enjoys eating salad. Every person I see eating solid vegetation has a look of solemn resignation. The reason they use women and have them laughing is to promote the idea that eating healthy will make you feel better. The reason it's a woman is because people who get paid lots of money in marketing departments realized targeting people's insecurity is a great way to sell a product. You might not like it, but by god it works.

Sacch
02-01-2014, 04:32 AM
Pretty much nobody likes to eat just a salad, so they have to make them look really damn happy to be eating a salad to compensate. It's almost always a woman eating the salad, because women need to eat salad as part of their responsibility to strive to conform to the supermodel ideal of beauty as they are ornaments first and people second.

...I never thought of it that way, LOL.
And "pretty much nobody likes to eat a salad," if it's PLAIN. That's why I put dressing on mine!

Krespo
02-01-2014, 04:33 AM
Pretty much nobody likes to eat just a salad, so they have to make them look really damn happy to be eating a salad to compensate. It's almost always a woman eating the salad, because women need to eat salad as part of their responsibility to strive to conform to the supermodel ideal of beauty as they are ornaments first and people second.

Well, obviously. As I sit here eating a steak and punching weights I pity the poor things.

piņardilla
02-01-2014, 04:36 AM
...I never thought of it that way, LOL.
And "pretty much nobody likes to eat a salad," if it's PLAIN. That's why I put dressing on mine!

You can't have dressing AND a thigh gap gosh!

lorenith
02-01-2014, 04:59 AM
I think the difficulty I have with understanding what defines a gender or whatever else, is that I wasn't raised with all those social pressures that many people are. It confuses me because I'm a girl, but I have zero interest in most girl things, and lots of interest in boy things. I'd like for everything to just be things, and people can enjoy them regardless of their gender thing.

I don't expect anything of someone based on their gender. I don't for example see a girl and assume she's going to want a barbie for her birthday, I see a girl and I ask her what she's interested in. I never felt especially surprised that my female TA in sculpture 1 was a welder and did all sorts of metal work, why should I?

TeenageAngst
02-01-2014, 06:10 AM
Moving back to the original topic I find it interesting how some things are considered masculine or feminine almost arbitrarily. Salads are for women, protein shakes are for men, but Slim Fast is for women, even though it's a protein shake? I see this all the time and it makes me scratch my head. Not so much from a consumer standpoint (I eat what I want regardless of branding) but from a marketing standpoint, I don't see the advantage of artificially segregating your product into two markets instead of one neutral one.

Willow
02-01-2014, 12:08 PM
Moving back to the original topic I find it interesting how some things are considered masculine or feminine almost arbitrarily. Salads are for women, protein shakes are for men, but Slim Fast is for women, even though it's a protein shake? I see this all the time and it makes me scratch my head. Not so much from a consumer standpoint (I eat what I want regardless of branding) but from a marketing standpoint, I don't see the advantage of artificially segregating your product into two markets instead of one neutral one.
Kind of depends on the product. Some products have to be marketed towards a specific group because the other one won't benefit from it and it'll be a waste of their money. Or at least won't benefit as much from it but still a big waste.

Things like salads though should be considered neutral because people use that in the same way though.

On topic: I found this (http://www.autostraddle.com/radical-self-care-25-ways-of-making-my-body-dysphoria-smaller-and-quieter-146649/) yesterday and thought it could be useful or anyone who needs it.

But also does anyone have any other ways of dealing with it not found there?

Fay V
02-01-2014, 01:19 PM
Closed for Maintenance

Taw
02-01-2014, 03:41 PM
I've cleaned this thread up a bit. If I've missed a post or delete something unnecessary please PM me and I'll look into it. Because this is the third time this thread has had issues, we're putting some guidelines in place.


Guidelines for this thread:

1. Be respectful of others - if someone doesn't agree with you, that's fine as long as both sides keep things civil.
2. Stay on topic - if someone is derailing the thread, please report it to staff.
3. If you feel as if someone is being disrespectful or attempting to incite drama, ignore their post. Do NOT reply, report it to the staff instead. Fighting with others makes a bigger mess for us to clean up and derails the thread.


Anyone who breaks these guidelines may be banned from this thread if they continue to cause problems.

certifiedkowaidad
02-01-2014, 07:58 PM
("Is it wrong to treat men like men, and women like women") is quite a loaded question :s

People are tribal, we love labels and we naturally use lots of them to identify ourselves and others. Is this really so bad? Is it even something we can change? Does using the "trans" or "genderqueer" categories simply create additional labels through which we can identify? Outside of one's sex, for another example, many people identify by their culture, something else that they can't necessarily choose; is it wrong for people to do so? I guess my point is, can I reframe "treating a man like a man" as "treating an American like an American," as opposed to a Japanese, without being unfair or ignorant in some way?


Have you considered the possibility that you might be interpreting the same behaviors in different ways based on physical characteristics? For instance, if a very large man is standing very close, screaming at you while talking with his hands, that would be aggressive, but a woman doing the same thing would be hysterical, even though those are the same behaviors.

I hadn't before considered conformation bias as a contributing factor. Do you feel it's enough to explain the full range and breadth of differences?


I know this is an overused example, but the media very much does "force" people into gender roles- subtly...we are not really "forced" into these gender roles most of the time, but we are subtly/subconsciously encouraged to partake in them starting from childhood. It's a form of socialization, and it can really suck.

Is socialization a bad thing? Aren't we social animals, and aren't all aspects of personality impacted by outside forces? It's true that I like a lot of things I do because I grew up with them, I'm used to them, I'm familiar with them. It scarcely bothers me that I don't like soccer in part because I didn't grow up around people who liked soccer. It seems difficult to cloister ourselves from all outside influences until emerging as a fully-grown unique and independent person. If it were possible, would that preferable?

Brace
02-01-2014, 09:46 PM
I hadn't before considered conformation bias as a contributing factor. Do you feel it's enough to explain the full range and breadth of differences?

I think men and women might tend statistically towards different tendencies, but there's definite overlap, and outliers of either gender at any extreme. I think to the extent this overlap and the outliers aren't visible to you it's confirmation bias. I wouldn't go so far as to say that men and women don't typically behave in distinctive ways, although I have no dog in the fight of why.

Sacch
02-01-2014, 09:54 PM
Is socialization a bad thing? Aren't we social animals, and aren't all aspects of personality impacted by outside forces? It's true that I like a lot of things I do because I grew up with them, I'm used to them, I'm familiar with them. It scarcely bothers me that I don't like soccer in part because I didn't grow up around people who liked soccer. It seems difficult to cloister ourselves from all outside influences until emerging as a fully-grown unique and independent person. If it were possible, would that preferable?

Socialization is NOT always a bad thing, no! I was merely using that saying it is a specific form of socialization- there are good and bad ways to "socialize" someone. It just depend on how it's done and the content.

You're absolutely right, we thrive on socializing in our lives and it's a basic need. My entire point was merely to state that I believe that specific type of socialization is a way of "forcing" gender roles onto someone.

It doesn't always work, because boys can play with girls toys because they choose, and vice-versa, but the media tries to enforce the stereotype that a boy playing with a girls' toy is "incorrect." Hence the article I mentioned about the boy dressing up in a girl's costume on Halloween. Here's the source:http://www.today.com/id/40069385/ns/today-parenting/#.Uu2j3fldXW8

I hope that makes sense.

In addition, I definitely agree with you that personalities are affected by outside forces, but I also feel they can be affected by the household. It does vary among individuals, but I was using what I saw the most in observation. When I'd sit down and watch TV with my brother, countless "gendered" toy commercials would come on, and I thought that was the best way I could explain it.

I can't really answer on whether or not what you mentioned would be preferrable- I'm sure people have tried it, but I can't speak for those who have and whether or not it's been successful.

Willow
02-01-2014, 10:14 PM
People are tribal, we love labels and we naturally use lots of them to identify ourselves and others. Is this really so bad? Is it even something we can change? Does using the "trans" or "genderqueer" categories simply create additional labels through which we can identify? Outside of one's sex, for another example, many people identify by their culture, something else that they can't necessarily choose; is it wrong for people to do so? I guess my point is, can I reframe "treating a man like a man" as "treating an American like an American," as opposed to a Japanese, without being unfair or ignorant in some way?
Oh, I read it the wrong way then. Labels aren't bad so long as they stay labels and not ways of segregating people further.

In all honesty I like having labels for things like this. It makes them seem a little more "normal" if there's a name for it because a lot of younger trans* people usually don't know what they're feeling or what it's called until sometime later unless they just so happen to stumble upon something about it

Sacch
02-01-2014, 10:25 PM
In all honesty I like having labels for things like this. It makes them seem a little more "normal" if there's a name for it because a lot of younger trans* people usually don't know what they're feeling or what it's called until sometime later unless they just so happen to stumble upon something about it

I couldn't agree more. I know this isn't related to gender identity, but I once saw an individual post on twitter about how if someone hadn't known the term "asexual" existed, they would have considered themselves "abnormal and broken." As long as it's not really used to discriminate someone, I don't see the issue with a label either. "Cisgender" and "transgender" aren't used to discriminate people, but merely describe how they identify as a person. I like that.

DivinePrince
02-02-2014, 04:31 AM
I am female, and identify female.
And I am respectful of other identities; but it is my belief that they need psychiatric help/ advice first before they do anything about it. Gender dysphoria is a condition. And I'm one of the people who believe it is due to a lack of respective hormones getting to the brain and therefor causing confusion.

Gamedog
02-02-2014, 05:29 AM
I just read through the entire thread.

I'm a cisgender male. I have trans* friends and I know quite a bit about transgender. (I'm sorry, I really don't know of a better way to word that? I'm trying to say that I've researched and asked about transgender studies and brain chemistry before). I believe that people should be able to identify with whatever they want, be whoever they want, and go by whatever pronouns they want. If I address a trans person by the incorrect pronoun, I would like for them to correct me politely and I will do my best to address them in the correct manner.

That being said, I don't really understand the issues that are so deep inside of the trans community among trans people. I don't understand why some of the older trans people shun the younger ones or ones that wish to transition or start HRT. (I've actually been shown and told about this by trans friends, it's quite scary). It seems counter-productive to segregate and fight amongst one another when everybody is fighting for the same thing?

In regards to gender role preferences and identity, this documentary shows that these are conceived even before birth. I think that studies like this will push the LGBT issues further in the spotlight and hopefully aid in the movement getting more assistance from society.
http://vimeo.com/19707588

I have to say though with complete honesty, that this thread has scared me about even seeking out more information on transgender issues from people other than my trans friends.

doublefluffed
02-03-2014, 04:30 PM
I am female, and identify female.
And I am respectful of other identities; but it is my belief that they need psychiatric help/ advice first before they do anything about it. Gender dysphoria is a condition. And I'm one of the people who believe it is due to a lack of respective hormones getting to the brain and therefor causing confusion.

Why would trans* people need psychiatric help? If someone is gay,bi,asexual. ect.. you wouldn't have them see a psychiatrist before they could have consensual sex? Why prevent trans* people to move forward with their lives? Its incredibly arbitrary to prevent transgender people from getting the hormones they need if they so choose to undergo hormone replacement therapy. It is not very respectful to alienate people like that.

PapayaShark
02-03-2014, 04:41 PM
Why would trans* people need psychiatric help? If someone is gay,bi,asexual. ect.. you wouldn't have them see a psychiatrist before they could have consensual sex? Why prevent trans* people to move forward with their lives? Its incredibly arbitrary to prevent transgender people from getting the hormones they need if they so choose to undergo hormone replacement therapy. It is not very respectful to alienate people like that.

I would say talking to a therapist for a while before getting irreversible treatment is a good idea, and in my opinion should be mandatory. Many people find out that they might not be trans, but instead suffer from BDD or something similar. But obviously they shouldn't be getting "ex-gay" kind of treatment, to "force" the trans out of them.

Willow
02-03-2014, 05:31 PM
Why would trans* people need psychiatric help? If someone is gay,bi,asexual. ect.. you wouldn't have them see a psychiatrist before they could have consensual sex? Why prevent trans* people to move forward with their lives? Its incredibly arbitrary to prevent transgender people from getting the hormones they need if they so choose to undergo hormone replacement therapy. It is not very respectful to alienate people like that.
Eh, I'm not a doctor or a psychiatrist but from what I've heard from other people who have transitioned, they usually do a psych eval to make sure the person is mentally capable of handling hormone treatments. I mean hell, even cis women taking birth control are prone to mood instability after while. So it's more like they don't want you to kill yourself or someone else as soon as you start it. Or if you do get the okay for treatments, they want to know your condition ahead of time so they can monitor it better.

Although I honestly would encourage anyone to see a therapist if they really need one just for the simple fact is that talking to someone about your dysphoria really helps too in the event you don't have anyone to talk to about it.

doublefluffed
02-03-2014, 06:57 PM
I would say talking to a therapist for a while before getting irreversible treatment is a good idea, and in my opinion should be mandatory. Many people find out that they might not be trans, but instead suffer from BDD or something similar. But obviously they shouldn't be getting "ex-gay" kind of treatment, to "force" the trans out of them.

The thing is, most of hormone replacement therapy is reversible. Unless taken for years a lot of it is not permanent. While I totally agree having a psych help guide someone through hormone replacement therapy I do not think it should be run as a "you must be at least this trans* to get hormones" Often this causes trans* people to be labeled as mentally ill instead of listening to what the person wants. I say this because it is possible to be trans* and not experience gender dysphoria to a huge extent. It could be minimal and due to minimal dysphoria a lot of psychs would not clear people for hormones which is a serious issue.

Gamedog
02-03-2014, 08:21 PM
I do not think it should be run as a "you must be at least this trans* to get hormones"

This is what I've been told by trans friends. I don't understand it, it's completely fucking bizarre to me. Why is it that someone has to have lived as their desired gender for X amount of years to be able to get a masectomy/implants or HRT when a cisgender person can go in and get any sort of plastic surgery done on any day of the week, no questions asked?
A lot of people get plastic surgery done because they aren't satisfied with their bodies, they're self-conscious, why is it that trans people have to jump through so many hoops when they also suffer from being self-conscious to suicidal extents?